Hey chaps, firstly thanks Awor for this excellent post. Secondly, i just want to say that i have noticed very good results with masteron. I am currently in the desert of Australia and on a little phone with v poor reception. Please note i am reducing my weekly T from 250 to 60, and am also reducing e2. So a few variables. I Felt better after 10 mins of injecting. The only thing i’m going to commit myself to saying is that i have noticed very good results with masteron. I will update and contribute to this excellent thread when i am back in civilisation. JN.
JN,
You are a warrior my friend…Truely are…Get back to us when you are home…
-Anonnn
Hi awor,
Thanks for the inciteful post, this has certainly grabbed my attention.
I myself am guilty of jumping on the 5ar2 deficiency bandwagon because as you say, it is the most logical idea.
I have a keen interest in your theory of receptor desensitization, i had posted in the original thread a while ago to see how the theory was going but didn’t hear back so i assumed that it had died off for some reason.
I have recently been looking at selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) as a possible course of treatment if it was to turn out our receptors are down-regulated. I’m not sure how familiar you are with these, i am still trying to find out about them myself, mostly from bodybuilding forums where it is currently being used.
Ostarine is a SARM that is currently in Phase 3 trials, from what i understand it works by stimulating the androgen receptor resulting in increased muscle and bone density but without negative effects on the HPTA.
I realise that i may be drastically oversimplifying a complex issue but not many other members of the forum have shown an interest in SARMs so i was hoping to get some thoughts.
Also, in order to further pursue this theory of androgen insensitivity, what is the next step? what tests need to be done, people need to be contacted, protocols need to be tried etc.
Right, I think i have to be candidly honest. A day after posting i have noticed ‘very good’ effects, i have to explaing this. I’m still on a little phone. I noticed ‘a feeling of goodness’ come over me and stay within 10 mins of injecting. I feel better. Acne has returned to R side neck. Perhaps increased sweating, more ejaculate, erections slightly better with regular semi morning woods. Perhaps a few more hairs falling out. But i’m a long long way from ‘normality’ and i must admit to being a bit scared that ‘replacement of DHT’ won’t sort me out. I will do a good screen of hormones when i get back to work. I need a break. I’m tired of this. JN.
Right chaps,
I just made a big post but I lost it. This is the slimmed down version.
I have been thinking a lot.
I have noticed the following 2 weeks on masteron
- Within 10 mins I FELT BETTER. Markedly so. Zero anxiety. Much happier. No argument.
- Increased sweating
- Increased acne R side neck (a third of what it was pre fin)
- Increased body hair (difficult to assess but I think so)
- Increased vascularity arms and legs, hands, feet
- Loss of central abdo fat, much more ‘cut’
- Increased beard density
- Increased nasal bogies ( I used to pick my nose a lot, this is a good sign, and I wasn’t looking for it)
- Improved erections, semi morning woods regularly, nearly full boner when fully stiumlated, more ejaculate (but still stringy), fuller scrotum, larger testes. Libido difficult to assess as I’ve been messing around with Arimidex
- Noticeably deeper sleep (wasn;t looking out for this, but feeling more refreshed).
- possibly deeper voice.
Clearly have responded to DHT addition. Shame it’s not a total cure but I need to do full hormone profile (I am VERY interested in my Prolactin level).
Need to give it more time.
Hopefully this is all Adiol G related, but we need to be open minded.
This is my avenue of exploration for the next few weeks to months. Please don’t expect too much from me, please leave me in peace. Do not pm me, do not text me, do not contact me apart from AWOR who I want to chat to on skype. Awor, you have my skype details. I’m about to email you my email address.
Please contribute to the healthy debate Awor has set before us,
JN
That is great news JN!
So how would one test for androgen insensitivity?
From what i understand the test for androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS), is to examine the response of SHBG to stanozolol as outlined in the link below:
springerlink.com/content/5xke760vmwl9xf47/
Is this a helpful test for post-fin sufferers?
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awor
i would be glad to take you up on your offer but im with a doctor in treatment now:
10% testogel 100 mg per day
1.5 grain armour thyroid
20 mg hydrocortisone
i am on the gel now for 4 weeks and currently at 1 grain armour, raising tomorrow to 1.5
i went in for the blooddraw today of adiol g, total t, e2 and dht
will keep you updated, 26th of february getting results
i would take andractim but i will not skew my treatment results… thanks for the offer though
im starting to agree with awor. i have taken androgel and andractim with no results. i was on for 2 years and it’s been 3 years off and i don’t lose hair at all. im only 25 years old and things are not looking optimistic.
Bruins,
I don’t understand what you are saying. I’ve read your posts from october and you said you got good results including improved ejaculate and better erections. Maybe your hormones got a little out of whack?
You may want to monitor your hormones more closely. Testosterone:Estrogen ratio should be 50:1 from what I heard.
For someone who has 800 testosterone, you should be at around 16 Estradial.
You could also try 5-alpha androstane 3, 17 beta diol
which is a naturally occuring compound for DHT.
I wish you best luck, I’m struggling just like you are…
We will get better though and I’m not gonna stop pursuing a lawsuit, even if it takes me 50 years.
Check out the main thread on this subject, we’ve been through that extensively: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 2216#16025
It would be fantastic if you could post your experience in this thread: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18718
Please post your experience here: propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18718
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awor,
I agree that we need to focus our efforts. I think a lot of us have been subconciously hoping for a solution coming from the scientific community. I have been to more doctors and spent more cash over the years and have come up with little. I think one of the problems is the anonymity of the internet. On one hand it gives us the ability to vent our frustrations and express fears, but ultimately it leaves the problem in the ether. I think we need to meet with other members of the forum in our local areas. Perhaps some of you have already done this. I live in New York, and would be willing to meet with anyone who was interested, if only to discuss face to face what can be done.
As for andractim, I’ve taken it, and did not feel a benefit. I mistakenly took a way too high dosage the first few times, and almost bit the head off a few unfortunate people, but no increase in sex drive.
As far as organizing goes, I think it would do to specalize and use our particular strengths. I for one have no aptitude for understanding the fine points of what is going on scientifically (what is commonly accpeted I mean not what baffles the doctors.)
It might make sense to get an idea of what people here do. ie do we have any lawyers any doctors, public advocates, people in the media. One of our main obstacles I think in really organizing is the private and embarassing nature of our problems, I mean god bless anyone who can and will generate intrest, but I for one cannot see myself sitting with oprah and talking about how my libido’s been in the tank for eight years. Call me prideful.
In any event I agree with the jist of your post.
Meeting in person is fine, but it doesn’t really change much. I’m just throwing this out here but a number of us use Google Talk (GTalk) to discuss this outside of the forum, and I deeply encourage anyone who is serious about making waves to use GTalk and meet with us there.
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"If 5ar were damaged, supplementing DHT should have a massive positive effect. "
Awor, I sincerely appreciate your efforts on raising awareness regarding AR receptor downregulation. So please don’t take this the wrong way - you b need to consider that BOTH mechanisms are at work here[/b]. Some evidence that both are involved are subjective, but consider the following:
1.) JN had medium term success supplementing with Human Growth Hormone (GH), and I have had some success using arginine based GH secretagogue (symptoms decreased espcially erectile, and IGF-1 doubled). Why is this significant? Because GH acts to upregulate androgen sensitivity. AND higher IGF-1 levels boost 5AR2 activity (higher GH triggers higher IGF-1). I have bloodwork to prove this, although it is not a pure experiment, as I raised total serum T by ~ 100% using low dose clomiphene, and at the end of an 8 week cycle of secretagogue, with both effects combined my Adiol-G was raised around 50% (still subnormal even by Quests wide open range, but up nonetheless along with symptom relief). Yes increased serum T means greater substrate for 5AR2 to react upon. If I get a chance I will test Adiol G again with T adjusted up a little over 100% from baseline, but no secretagogue, to seperate out the secretagogue effect from the increased substrate effect.
2.) Have been reading, on and off, a book on androgen receptors, prepared by one of the top world experts in the field… Funny thing here - an entire chapter is devoted to discussing 5AR2. And sections of 2 or 3 other chapters also discuss 5AR2 at some length. If AR and Adiol-G (5AR2 activity marker/metabolite) are completely unrelated then why would a world renowned AR expert include this information?
3.) Have been studying, since I got my first piss poor adiol-G serum level back, all the food and food substances that inhibit 5AR2. Amazing, the AR book has a Chapter 6 that talks about foods that downregulate AR. Ready for this? Green tea polyphenols, quercetin, Resveratrol, DHA, all downregulate AR in the prostate (resveratol lowers levels of AR related proteins in all areas). And all these substances are ALSO 5AR2 inhibitors.
4.) The 5AR2 gene SRD5A2, the AR receptor genes, and the vitamin D receptor gene VDR are all part of the same superfamily. While not yet grasping the entire significance of this, consider that just about every single member of this forum, that has had vitamin D tested, turns out to be deficient, and, even for those that have supplemented with very high doses, remain somewhat deficient. Please refer to the vitamin D thread and my comments in a couple places there. It would appear that the connection here is more than casual . . .
I totally agree with you that the AR receptor theory is hard to grasp, even for those of us that have a scientific background. The mechanics of 5AR2->Adiol-G and finasteride effects are much easier for all of us to begin to understand. Please keep an open mind, and BTW, if you happen to know how the androgen receptor interacts with inhibin I am all ears. And your quote above - oversimplifies in that what appears to be important is where we make DHT, not just how much we have of it. If we aren’t converting it in the prostate, pituatary, and testis via 5AR2, the normal DHT levels resulting from 5AR1 activity in the skin may not in fact result in much progesterone to allopregnanolone conversion. .Does AR downregulation effect allopregnanolone (or other neurotransmitter) synthesis? If not how to explain those on this forum with brain fog?
The future may in fact prove that AR downregulation is causative to 5AR2 suppresion. If and when that is proven I will owe you a beer or three. In the mean time I find that both theories overlap and support one another, more than compete with one another. Sorry if my tone sounds harsh, do not intend for it to be. And yes, I’ve been remiss in posting some of my own results.
Respectfully - kazman
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By what specific mechanism(s) would androgen insensitivity cause lower levels of testosterone and DHT and raised levels of estradiol?
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If the main culprit of our problems is in fact epigenetic changes resulting in androgen insensitivity, then would raising testosterone to supraphysiological levels ameliorate our symptoms? According to Dr. Crisler, this is often what is necessary when treating men who have Post-Propecia Syndrome with TRT. Or is it the case that with androgen insensitivity higher levels of testosterone would have no effect?
I have no idea what to believe, but thank you, Awor for posting this.
Unlike some of you, I believe I would be willing to go on Oprah and even (if it were possible) to show my anatomy before and after to the public. The problem is, Merck would have “experts” go on other programs to either discredit or belittle our concerns and assure everyone that the risks are low compared to success rates.
Funny (not so funny) thing about the whole situation for me is that I care, but then I don’t care because at a fundamental level, my being has stopped caring about life the way a normal functioning person (not depressed or pharmaceutically altered) SHOULD be concerned about life and society. Memories of how life used to be and thoughts of “things I might one day enjoy” usually only serve to cause frustration.
The problem we find ourselves in seems even worse to me than the sordid state of politics, the middle class of the developed world, and the world economy (however many ways you want to circumscribe the ‘state of things in the world’). I say this not necessarily because we’re dealing with this on a very fundamental, physical, and personal level, but because it seems inevitable that history will move forward or mankind will self-destruct. ATM, I see no solution, but I have a small bit of hope that sunshine and exercise could one day get the recovery ball rolling.
JN, I will be interested to hear about what happens with you assuming that you are doing DHT on then off again… a cycle, I suppose you would call it.
Updated my previous post to list known food constituents that downregulate AR activity and are also 5AR2 inhibitors.
So you’re telling that you became insensitive to T only and not DHT? Considering that you still lose your hair, everything is okay there. How’s your body hair and beard?
Or are we talking about low T symptoms like muscle wastage and stress and stuff like that?
Please give an explanation to a low-IQ-ed simple peasant like me also! I as well need help 
.
I think this theory is the simplest answer: it can easily be associated with every side effect no matter what the hormones are (because the hormones just don’t matter, if your body is insensitive to them). I will certainly ask my doctor about it and see how he rules it out.
I have quite high T levels, but am still infertile. Why? Because my body doesn’t respond to T.
I have quite high T levels, but my scrotum skin is still stretched and my testicles hang low. Why? Because my body doesn’t respond to T.
The same with no morning woods and weak erections.
Fanjeera, infertilitiy is also a symptoms of zinc deficiency. Have you tried a zinc taste test from the chemist/pharmacy?
It is infertility caused by underdeveloped sperm. I’m taking some vitamins atm, I think they contain a good amount of zinc too.