New topic about using DHT to increase 5AR2

General Discussion
#5

Danny I am curious. When you used straight DHT and or the prohormones that supposedly convert to DHT (I am referring to the prohormones you mentioned in your response) did you try cycling them?

To be more specific with my question:

Did you take it for lets say 4-6 weeks than take lets say 4-6 weeks off than repeat this process over and over again for let’s day like 4 or 5 times?

And to the first poster who posted a response to my thread

Yes you are correct that we know that it’s clear that the order of events as far as DHT production goes we have testosterone-5alpha reductase-DHT. But as you can see if you read about CDNUTS story under recoveries (the title is called I’m cured) he says that he had done research that leads him to believe that although the 5 alpha reductase converts Testosterone to DHT that the presence of already reduced DHT can stimulate the 5 alpha reductase enezma.

Also if you go to the anonymous posters posting from 2009 he claims that this may be a possible way to fix what the 5 alpha reductase inhibiters did to us. Who ever this anonymous poster was made it a point to say the DHT needs to be cycled over a extended period of time.

If you find the anonymous poster thread you will see that long time members of this website had reason to believe this anonymous poster was someone with some inside info.

Deff no guaranteed solution by any means but possible worse a try.

I would like to see the out comes from more members who try this

#6

Also Danny.

The only other theory that anyone on here has that sounds reasonable is that 5 alpha reductase inhibiters have some how caused us to be in some way resistant or insensitive to testosterone and DHT.

What do you think about this theory? It does not sound right to me simply because 5 alpha reductase inhibiters have no known mechanism in the way they work that would cause this to happen. I mean even people who are diabetic and who are resistant to their own insulin or who can no longer produce insulin still have the ability to respond to insulin that doctors give them. They did not just somehow become resistant to all insulin.

In other words if you take DHT (which u have) and it did not make your symptoms go away (which it did not) I don’t believe that this is because your endocrine system had became resistant to DHT. I think that it’s more reasonable to think that this is because the body’s mechanism to use that DHT towards sexual function is just “shut off”.

After all we took meds that reduce that function. That’s just my 2 cents. Sometimes when we take stuff that shuts off a body’s function it just dose not simply turn back on.

There are documented cases of people who take creatine and there body’s stopped producing creatine and now they need to take creatine for good.

#7

it has noting to do with 5AR enzymes. people born without 5AR enzymes respond well to DHT application. I put a case of two paksitani simbilings here, please see here
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1793798/

if it was only 5AR issue just by applying DHT we would have got healthy easily.

#8

I would agree that if we could confirm that people born with 5 alpha reductase deficiency respond good to DHT than this would prove to be a major flaw in this being the true explanation as to how we got damaged by DHT inhibiters.

But there are problems I see with the link you referred me to. First off the study mentioned how DHT combined with some type of corrective surgery was required for one of the siblings. Also it’s saying that the siblings only experienced a certain amount of results from the DHT being applied. I can’t find anything in your link that makes it clear that once these siblings received DHT all of their issues were solved and that they where now normal. (Not trying to be rude, but if that is stated in your link please point it out to me because I seem to be missing it) I think that In order to prove your opinion that if this was simply a issue of are 5 alpha reductase function not working than DHT would fix us for sure
We would need more clear cut straight forward study’s/ evidence that make it clear that DHT corrected the issues in people that go along with being born without the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. To back up my point further, people with the micro penis would be corrected by using DHT. I mean why live your while life with a micro penis if all you had to do was use DHT to fix it.

Also I think that there is a big difference between being born with a complete 5 alpha reductase deficiency disorder and growing up normally and out of the blue after we are fully grown and developed losing some of are 5 alpha reductase function which is what I think is going on with us.

I just think the sexual side effects that we get (we being people who need high levels of 5 alpha reductase to “feel right” ) are caused by no longer having those high levels we where born with.

After all what do we all have in common. We had balding issues, large prostates and Acne (issues that are all caused by high 5 alpha reductase type 1 or 2. Than we all take a drug that inhibits that and all of a sudden we have limp dick and watery semen.

#9

We didn’t take meds that reduce the body’s mechanism that uses DHT towards sexual function. We took a med that simply inhibits conversion to DHT.

The reason why we know no longer respond to direct testosterone and DHT is still up for debate. But it proves that it isn’t simply a case of the 5-alpha conversion not being functionable, as supplementing directly bypasses this process.

Rather it’s more a case of either unresponsive receptors to androgens (possible since DHT induces an increase in these receptors), or an imbalance of opposining feminising hormones such as progesterone and estrogen. Each of the latter have very anti-androgenic properties, so excessive amounts will cause sexual dysfunction regardless of the level of androgens in plasma.

I know this is true in my case given my high plasma progesterone and elevated SHBG which effectively binds up all testosterone into an inactive state. I don’t know whether that is true for everyone else, and I don’t know the origin of the dysfunction.

#10

Yea I agree we really don’t know what had caused are issues. We will Never know until the medical community acknowledges that these drugs have caused are issues on a larger scale (not just a few doctors mentioned on this Website). They won’t look into it what exactly these drugs have done until there is agreement in the medical community that PFS is real.

In the mean time we are in are own. It’s clear it’s hard to find common traits in are blood labs. For example you say you have high E. I don’t. 3 years after my issues started my total testosterone was in the 700’s my SHBG and E was mid range perfect. But how is It that I still have watery semen and limp
Dick? Because I have become resistant to hormones? Maybe maybe not.

One final note on what I think about just taking DHT and expecting symptom improvement. If we already have normal serum DHT levels in are blood why would simply adding more help? Simply adding more test dose not help? The key thing is here adding more DHT in an attempt to hope to get lucky and get increased ability to have it become available to Be used in are prostate cells via 5 alpha reductase. I believe that yes in a way there is some type of function that we get through the 5 alpha reductase that allows us to use DHT for sexual Function. I believe that this is what these drugs target , that ability. You can’t shrink a prostate simply by reducing DHT u need to screw with how the prostate works. It makes sense that these drugs change how are prostates use DHT.

But anyways the point of why I started this thread was so we can hear about people’s attempts with cycling DHT. Cycling DHT. Not DHT replacement. Maybe people think this can work maybe they don’t. I simply want to hear from people who tried to cycle DHT in an attempt to see if in the long run they notice improvement in ability to achieve and maintain erection, sensation, size , quality of semen. CDnuts said after each cycle he noticed more and more improvements in these areas. That leads me to believe he had something turn back on slowly.

That’s what I am trying to find out. Even though I don’t mind discussing with members if they think cycling DHT has the ability to increase 5AR2 or not or if they think this is the answer. I just want to hear from people who tried.

So did you try to cycle it while using PCT in between each cycle? Or do you know anyone who has?

#11

a quick look shows the difference before and after DHT application
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … figure/F1/

Note how muscles tone has changed besides growth of penis and testicles.And this change took place in only three months.
Now if you go on transgenders you will see many girls after applying DHT have changed to males, with big beard and muscles whereas we are responding negatively to DHT. Many reported a further shrinkage after applying DHT to penis. I think our issue is either with Adrenal or liver. Now this is established fact most of us got worse after stopping 5AR inhibitors. Maybe liver is making some kind of proteins to counter the effects of 5AR but now attacking our own DHT. this is just a hypothesis.

#12

I think it’s a good hypothesis. Deff somthing I am going to look more into 2

But I think you pretty much in a way stated what I have in mind. That transgenders experience changes when using DHT such as hair growth and muscle growth. In your example you talked about how girls wanting to become guys get muscle growth and hair growth after using DHT. However as we can see from those pics the change the 3 months worse of DHT application had on the micro penis is minimal.

My theory is that the body’s ability to use DHT for the purpose of muscle growth and hair growth is something different than the body’s ability to use DHT for sexual function. I think when it’s stated that the prostate converts T to DHT that means 2 thing:

  1. there is 5 alpha reductase going on within the cells of the prostate that add to are total level of serum DHT levels (the levels that show when we have are blood tested for DHT levels which is what i believe contributs to muscle and hair growth)

  2. this exact type,area, level or mechanism of 5 alpha reductase function (that’s going on inside the prostate) has been reduced or possible even complete destroyed when we took 5 alpha reductase inhibiters) which is why we experience ED. I think the assholes making these meds knew that they had to come with a way for these meds to not only reduce the overall amount of DHT in are body’s but more importantly target specific areas in the body that covert T to DHT such as the prostate and scalp for their meds to be effective for the purpose in which people take them.

If my theory is right this means we can add more DHT all day long but until are prostates are making it or reducing it we will always have these symptoms because in order for the prostate to use DHT it needs to make DHT.

I mean why is it that are prostates no longer even have the ability to produce normal PSA levels. Two things produce PSA levels

  1. prostate cancer
    2)DHT

This is why we are now at a higher risk of having a more deadly type of prostate cancer because a normal PSA test no longer has the ability to be as accurate for us when comparing it’s level of accuracy to a guy who did not have abnorml reactions to these meds. In other words all these new recent warning about these meds putting us at a higher level of a deadly type of prostate cancer is explained by fact that it’s just harder to diganose are prostate cancer because even when we get it are psa levels remain normal. So it takes longer for it to be diagnosed in us.

We still have normal DHT levels in are blood…

This is why I believe the key thing here is that these drugs affected are prostates ability to use DHT which is the same thing as it’s ability to make it. In my mind making it and using it are one in the same as far as how are prostates work

#13

As far as why some guys get worse after stoping the DHT inhibiters I have no explanation as far as my theory being able to explain that. Even more so if there are guys who experienced no problems at all until they stopped taken the DHT inhibiter. I agree that trying to explain both of those situations seems to require some type of explanation that goes beyond the prostates ability to convert T to DHT.

I would be interested to know how many guys fall in the category of being people who experienced no problems until they stopped taking the DHT inhibiter. One of my biggest questions to these guys would be than why did u stop taking the DHT inhibiter if you experienced no problems while taking it.

The only other thing I could think of is maybe the point in which the DHT inhibiters ability interferes with the prostates ability to convert T to DHT varies greatly among men. This would explain why some men with BPH take these drugs and experience no reduction in symptoms and in the size of their prostates but some men take them and all if their BPH symptoms go away never to return.

The only situation I feel my theory dose not explain is why it’s possible to start to feel bad on DHT inhibiters than get worse when you stop them.

#14

I came across the study that you were talking about, and posted it here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9061

#15

Thanks for posting that.

Out of everything I have researched on this website I believe this avenue is the answer to what had caused most if not all of the sexual side effects we experienced from taking these drugs.

The only other explanation that makes sense is the theory that we are resistant to are own hormones. I don’t believe we are resistant to are hormones after taking a DHT inhibiter. If this was true we would be worse off than we are. People with diabetes for example who are resistant to their own insulin still respond to insulin they take. Furthermore it’s also well known that if people with diabetes did not take insulin they experience terrible symptoms.

If we no longer respond to are own testosterone and or DHT and if this is truly the explanation as to what’s causing are problems I think we would be really sickly with issues that go far behind ED.

#16

I used Andractim (DHT) gel for 6 months. great psychological effect. Very good for depression. Reduced estradiol.

unfortunately did not solve the PFS. :cry:

did nothing to erection and libido

#17

what part of the body you applied Andractim? did you get any rash on any part of your body after application. I am interested if you have applied it on scrotum?

#18

Backfromhell, when you say you used the DHT cream for 6 months did you cycle it on and off in some type of cycle routine? Or did you use it for 6 months straight non stop?

I ask because the anonymous poster from back in 2009 recommended cycling DHT for the purpose of attempting to increase 5AR expression in the prostate. In other words in order to attempt to “jump start” the 5 alpha reductase type 2 enzyme production in the prostate. The anonymous poster specifically recommend to cycle the DHT cream.

If you still have access or the ability to obtain the DHT cream would you be willing to try to cycle it for at least 3 months. It would look something like this:

June: use DHT cream for whole month
July: off for whole month while doing some type of pct
Aug: use DHT cream for whole month
Sept: off for whole month while doing some type of pct
Oct: use DHT cream for whole month
Nov: off for whole month while doing some type of pct

Anonymous posters post regarding cycling DHT In order to increase 5 alpha reductase type 2 expression in the prostate can be found under theories near the top of the list.

Remember the goal is to try this by cycling the DHT. I know it’s hard to believe this could work considering you were on it for 6 months with out any improvement in sexual side effects but it’s still worth a shot for someone to try if they are not getting better anyways and have access to Prescription DHT cream. Maybe even consider cycling it every other month for a year to see what happends!

The main thing with it would he to look for some type of improvement after each cycle. CDnuts reported some improvement after each cycle he did of androhard.

Lastly the fact that the DHT helped you feel better mentally is a good sign. Personally after attempting TRT for 6 months (under doctors supervision) I felt better mentally too but just like in your case experienced no improvement in sexual sides such as ED.

I interpret this as follows:

We are not resistant to DHT and testosterone. Because if we where how would DHT and testosterone improve some of are mental sides. I think that it’s Unreasonable to believe that we are resistant to hormones just on a level of the hormones being able to help are sexual sides. If we were resistant taking hormones would not help any of are sides.

Also as far as DHT or testosterones action on sexual function goes, it’s not just the level of hormones in are blood it’s how they got their. In other words the DHT needs to be naturally produced in are body’s such as in important areas such as the prostate.

Let me know if cycling DHT is something you would be willing to do in the future.

#19

5 alpha victim
please use proper English words, don’t write are instead of our.

#20

shoulders, abdomen, thighs, chest. Not applied on scrotum, the manufactory does not recommend that. No i did not have rash. My estradiol decrease a lot, and my testosterone increase. Better mood. But, no libido.

#21

i agree with you

“DHT needs to be naturally produced in are body’s such as in important areas such as the prostate.” And the brain, skin, stomach. etc.

I have the prescription of andractim and i can buy online. I will try this cycle in the future. Before, i´m planning a water fast… 10 to 15 days.

I used andractim 6 month straight, no cycle. DHT loose this effects after a few months. All the good psychological effect looses effect after a few months. The great benefits is that lower estradiol very safe.

#22

english is not my native language, its very hard to learn another language with pfs… sorry for bad english.

#23

Maybe backfromhell and others are not getting the best effects because of HPTA shutdown…

Cycling is one option, but maybe we can get around having to cycle. I found a possible answer to the HPTA shutdown problem here: bit.ly/1nnGcnS

Would like to hear from other members who might have something to say about this.

The original post is interesting and see also what someone else said later in the thread…

#24

He was talking about me not using proper English.

English is my first and only language and PFS is not to blame for this issue I just can’t spell.
Anyways I Am interested in the cycling of the DHT not only to help prevent shut down but because I just have a gut feeling that cycling the DHT opposed to just taking it as DHT replacement would increase the likely hood of increasing the 5AR enzyme that the anonymous poster from 2009 had in mind.

Backfromhell. Fasting before you try the cycling of the DHT sounds like a great idea.

I wish I could get my hands on some DHT to try the same thing. I plan on doing a 2 week water fast at the end of the summer after I complete some training I have to do for work. Also plan on getting fat before I do my water fast which Is one more reason why I want to wait until
End of summer. Keep us posted.