is waiting and doing nothing is the right strategy? Please read the following.

General Discussion
#1

I am not scaring anyone but looks like the people who are doing nothing are losing even more (if LH is supressed for long time). their testicles will die, permenantly.

nature.com/pcan/journal/v2/n … 0310a.html

Testosterone depletion is the keystone for therapy of patients metastic prostatic carcinoma. Our objective was to investigate Leydig cell function and testosterone levels after withdrawal of long-term endocrine treatment in patients with prostatic carcinoma. Thirteen patients with prostatic carcinoma, previously treated with oestrogens for at least 4 y, were stimulated with 5000 IU human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG). The stimulation was performed 3-6 y after cessation of the oestrogen therapy. Serum concentrations of testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) were measured before and 24 and 48 h after hCG stimulation. Before hCG stimulation all patients had low serum testosterone concentrations (mean 2.0±0.2 nmol/l) and 24 and 48 h after hCG stimulation the values had not significantly increased (mean 2.4±0.2 and 2.5±1.1 nmol/l, respectively). LH and FSH were within or above the normal range before but after hCG stimulation the values significantly increased. In conclusion, the study shows that the Leydig cells were unable to respond to hCG stimulation more than 3 y after cessation of oestrogen therapy. The Leydig cell function seems to be irreversibly impaired by long-term oestrogen treatment.

#2

This worries me.

I think a key feature to our suffering is unopposed oestrogen activity. just because one’s oestrogen may be ‘normal’, that doesn’t matter. it’s the fact that it’s been UNOPPOSED BY DHT ABSENCE for so long.

Infertility?

My balls are quite small, even with HCG. I used to notice when I woke, the morning after injecting HCG, that I’d feel more ‘happily lazy’. I don’t get that feeling any more. Also, my ejaculate seems to have been reducing over the 4 years I’ve been using HCG. I wonder if the damage has been done. Shame.

#3

Your interpretation of it is not quite right, I don’t think.

It’s the oestrogen damage to the testes rather than the LH deprivation that causes desensitisation.

#4

Maybe I am wrong but I can post another study, or you can google your self, where a study was done. HCG was given to two groups, one who used steriod, and one normal people. normal people resonded 20% more to HCG. why? because steriod users kept their HPTA supressed for 3-4 months.
Similarly experts advise to body builders to use HCG during the anabolic cycle to keep balls functioning and to not let atropy set in. once it sets in and balls shrink.when balls return to normal, to some experts they don’t get to 100% or at least not immidiately.I just read this yesterday, maybe that is the reasone some guys who recovered do not feel 100% even after years. I think body tries to recover it self but takes time during which time we should keep our balls working. In my case alot of time I felt I am recovering and 100% recovery is just weeks away but then suddenly I find myself loosing the gains again.
I strongly think we should stop blaming propecia ( at least for 100% of our problems). it is the supression of our HPTA (or atleast partially) that is cuasing problems. I spent few hours yesterday reading bodbuilders sites and found few guys just like us.
Note: this is my opinion. I don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings.

#5

Huh? My HPTA was always fine. My T was top of the range post finasteride, and TRT just pushed it higher. I needed to be supraphysiological to feel ok.

This is more than the HPTA.

At least, Adiol G is more than the HPTA.

I’ve rendered my HPTA functionless due to TRT for years, but the key seems to be unavailable DHT due to lack of intracellular Type 2 enzyme.

The study shows oestrogen desensitises Leydig cells. I would assume that these men had reasonably functioning HPTA.

The point here is that the Leydig cells DO NOT RESPOND TO LH/FSH or it’s synthetic analogue HCG. So it’s only the ‘T’ part of the HPTA that is messed up. Irreversibly. Due to oestrogen.

We likely have continuous UNOPPOSED OESTROGEN DAMAGE TO OUR TESTES AS DHT WAS NOT AVAILABLE TO OPPOSE OESTROGEN EFFECTS.

#6

We keep on guessing around about non-functioniong 5aRII.
Why not perform urine panel and get respective metabolites checked?
I have not taken any hormonal supplementations so far; my DHT is top range, my testosterone, free testosterone etc…looks all ok-good.
I suffer from the sexual sides and don’t see that my leydig cells are desensitized towards oestrogen. if they were, my testoserone would be crappy. In fact it is not, meaning they respond to lh.

I don’t rule out the possibility of oestrogen imbalance, especially since my hair is not falling out anymore (since years!!) - but stop guessing around with non-functioning 5aRII and get the tests for further confirmation.
The HPTA is for sure not the only issue around (if it the issue in our case at all!).