I was recovering, but ate salmon and got worse

General Discussion
#21

You draw many useful observations that helps us get closer to conclusions. Kudos to you :clap:

Now onto your your ā€œsurvival modeā€ hypothesis. Iā€™ve been trying to look at PFS from a different view angle thatā€™s different from classifying everything as either anti-5AR or pro-5AR. My answer to this ā€œsurvival modeā€ is ā€œexcess/chronic inflammationā€. See, when ever the body is put under stress, it reacts through this ā€œsurvival modeā€ mechanism. Imagine being starved in a desert or in life-or-death situation, then it stands to reason that sex is the furthest thing from your mind. Iā€™ve another term for the ā€œsurvival modeā€ that I call ā€œsickness behaviorā€. Itā€™s caused by releasing inflammatory cytokines that leads to hypothalamicā€“pituitaryā€“adrenal axis (HPA axis) overactivation. This is bodyā€™s way for adaptation and is infact healthy when it occurs over short period of time. However, problems arise when this adaptation mechanism shifts from short to long-term.

Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal-axis-disruption-can-promote-chronic-inflammatory-and-lead
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#22

Sam-e can lead to higher levels of histamine through the negative feedback loop mechanism on the HNMT gene - if your taking too much then it can raise histamine - this leads to insomnia and feeling wired. Histamine has many jobs in the body but one is that is causes alertness and wakefulness- thats why too much and you feel wired and have insomnia. Many poeple with MCAS or histamine intolerance have insomnia issues. So that could explain what happened - cant be sure 100% of course.

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#23

Intersting

Here is my 7/29/2020 and 12/05/2020 urine neurotransmitter test results. In both tests my histamine production is highish. Also the Histamine N-methyltransferase enzyme (HNMT enzyme) is shown on the chart to convert Histamine to N-methylhistamine via HNMT enzyme using SAMe as cofactor. So if I have highish histamine in my urine this could also be because the HNMT enzyme is not converting enough histamine into
N-Methylhistamine because maybe the HNMT enzyme activity is low. And this results in histamine building up and the body needing to pee out highish amounts of it in the urine. But if what Iā€™m proposing is correct we would think that my introducing more SAMe the HNMT enzyme would now have more of its required co factor to work and more of my histamine could convert into N-Methylhistamine and my urine histamine would drop to a lower amount resulting in me feeling better. This did not happen in spite of taking SAMe for 64 days in between the tests so leads me to believe that the SAMe did something else responsible for my recent crash.

But you are proposing the idea that SAMe can lead to higher levels of histamine through the negative feedback loop mechanism on the HNMT gene which is different from the HNMT enzyme. So I would like to learn more about this. Although my histamine actually went down a little in the second test compared to the first test and around the time of my second test is when I crashed. But I still would like to learn more about your proposed mechanism so that I can include it into my calculations.

I messed up earlier when i said that SAMe is a co factor involved in dopamine to to norepinephrine. SAMe Attachment (2) chart actually shows SAMe being used as a co factor for norepinephrine to epinephrine conversion

I included SAMe attachment (1) and (2) showing all of the conversions that SAMe is involved in. I think itā€™s important that we analyze SAMeā€™s co factor capabilityā€™s so that we can figure out why three of us here including Dubai get worse from SAMe. If we could figure out why SAMe makes certain PFS cases worse we will be one step closer to cracking the code.

On an unrelated note I believe that my increase in natural serotonin production into the optimal range is what cured my constipation of seven years. 80-90 percent of the serotonin in the body is produced in the gut which stimulates intestinal contractions. Upon comparing both of my tests it can be seen that I increased my natural production of serotonin into the optimal range. After reading about Serotonin it is clearly needed for normal gut functioning. On another unrelated note I am suspicious that in spite of successfully increasing my natural dopamine into the optimal range that the extra dopamine did not subsequently convert to Norepinephrine and Epinephrine even though I was taking both co factors required for Dopamine to convert into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine. SAMe attachment two shows SAMe and vitamin C being the required cofactors for these conversions. So why did my body purposely lower the enzymes responsible for Dopamine to go to Norepinephrine and for norepinephrine to go to Epinephrine? This question haunts me especially if Norepinephrine and Epinephrine are responsible for sexual function like some think.

Urine Neurotransmitters test resuts
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#24

I used to eat mushrooms with abundance without any ill effect. A year or two I read how it negatively affected a few guys on the forum and then I started to feel the full gamut of effects such as dizziness, anxiety, compete loss of libido, etc.

Took me a while to realise that my mind was playing tricks on me based on what Iā€™d read and now I eat mushrooms without any issues whatsoever.

Goes to show the power of the mind and the placebo effect.

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#25

Interesting

Do you know which inflammatory cytokines we could get tested for to explore this further ?

#26

HNMT is not the only enzyme that breaks down histamine but also DAO. Having low DAO activity also leads to histamine building-up. I was supplementing cofactors to support DAO and that includes Mg, Cu, Zn, Ca. However, I changed my strategy and focused on supporting bacteria known to breakdown histamine and block histamine receptors and reduce strains known to convert histidine into histamine. I also link histamine intolerance to potential microbiome dysbiosis because mine came about after mega dosing Xifaxan (for SIBO) followed by ingesting Lactobacillus reuteri probiotics that are histamine producing.

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#27

Well, not exactly. Mushrooms are the preferred food source (prebiotic) for lactobacilli bacteria (lactic acid based bacteria). If you have very low level of these then mushroom can help them grow but it would possibly cause initial reactions known as Jarischā€“ Herxheimer reaction.

#28

I do think we grossly underestimate this.

Interesting you mention a complete lack of libido after eating a mushroom. Iā€™ve had such an experience where I took x supplement, started reading about it, read something about possible 5ar interactions, saw my shrinkage worsen as I stressed about it, had to forcefully calm myself down and tell myself to stop. To stop acting like a fucking lunatic. Shrinkage got better after I calmed down.

I think thereā€™s a lot of good info here, but the constant overanalysing, especially about foods, is driving me nuts. And maybe itā€™s also keeping my body from recovering?

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#29

Good question. Inflammatory markers include CRP, high antibodies IgG, IgE, IgA, & Inflammatory cytokines IL-6, IL-1beta, TNF-a, IFNĪ³, IL-12, IL-18 and probably others but these are the ones on top of my head. Itā€™s also good idea to get CBC test and check for WBC particularly eosinophils.

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#30

Most salmon youā€™ll find is probably not wild caught and they add chemicals or genetically modify it to make it pink. Iā€™ve stopped eating any fish because I donā€™t want to risk increasing my metals toxicity because detoxing isnā€™t easy. Iā€™ve noticed that salmon in particular makes me feel like I ate junk food but Iā€™m just not sure of the cause.

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#31

I think that when already in an unbalanced state psychological stress increases the symptoms like in your case going on a supplement and being rightfully so nervous that it could make you worse and then while already on the supplement reading here that it made someone else worse.

I donā€™t view most PFS case as being psychological though. I say this because for 2 solid years I stayed off this website completely, did not think about PFS, just herb cycled and eat a insanely healthy diet for two years. I purposely worked 60-80 hrs per week to occupy my mind and so I could afford to eat three sweet green salads per day with chicken which was over 4000 calories daily of extremely healthy things. Even with working those hours I still got enough sleep because I went home and immediately went to sleep. I worked out at work. During that period of time I got in the best shape of my life. Sleep was good, digestive system still broken but on that diet with a gallon of water and smoothie daily it was good enough. But I never got better. This ā€œCDnuts style life styleā€ never improved my sexual sides. For others 2 solid years of that cured people or substantially improved their condition.

One thing I should add though I was under a lot of stress from work stuff during the time I went pretty much all in CDnuts protocol. But this is a different kind of stress. Not obsession thinking about PFS, supplements, tests and getting worse stress. So I donā€™t know maybe if I was not working like that I could have recovered

Either way in my opinion if it was not for getting in a PFS state from taking Dut followed by Saw P none of these things being discussed here would cause shrinkage or any of these symptoms for me. However after being put in this state by taking a drug/supplement that changed things on a physiological level for me reducing as much psychological stress as possible is clearly important for me and probable important for all
of us.

#32

Thanks

Iā€™ll put it on my list to get tested for all of these things. Yesterday I started a 4 DHEA trial and unless something goes wrong Iā€™ll be running it for 4-6 weeks while repeating hormone only testing while on it. I tested free T, Total T, LH and FSH, DHT and estradiol yesterday before starting. Iā€™m keeping it simply for the immediate future because the main things I need to know for this trial is if the 4 DHEA increases or decreases my natural testosterone production, increases or decreases my aromatase activity, what my DHT production does during these changes and how my symptoms correlate with what ever changes I see on paper. It may be the case for me like you that I could get improvements with a testosterone to estradiol ratio that favors the estradiol side of things. Who knows what will happen but like you said other people including yourself and other Saw P cases improved and or got cured following this strategy. Another Saw P case on another forum is running the same trial with me also with before and during labs.

I stopped the herb cycling and hops extract three days ago. I have the herb cycling ready to go for PCT if this 4 DHEA substantially shuts me down. I would rather run a completely clean trial but need to stay on the magnesium and Glycine for sleep and the precursors L-Tryptophan and 5-HTP and co factor vitamin B6 for natural serotonin production because doing so continues to substantially improve my digestion and I think it also helps me sleep.

So fingers crossed
Iā€™m hoping to not crash again and beat this once and for all. Even if I needed several cycles of 4 Andro would be fine with me.

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#33

My pleasure @5-alpha-victim

What are the herbs that youā€™re recycling if I may ask? Worry not, DHEA (regular & probably even 4-DHEA) shouldnā€™t shut you down and Iā€™m talking from first-hand experience + bloodwork for LH, T, E2, & DHEA-S. Iā€™d only keep an eye on Cortisol since DHEA may lower it in a dose-dependent fashion. That said, my lowish Cortisol symptoms resolved pretty quickly after stopping DHEA. 4-DHEA in doses of 15mg and higher will likely raise your DHEA-S, E2 & lower Cortisol.

Look for these signs should you hit the sweet spot for T/E2 ratio:

  • Nocturnal & morning erections
  • Uptick in libido. This oneā€™s obvious
  • More motivation/generally positive vibe
  • More energy, increased focus & better digestion
  • Increased strength and better recovery if youā€™re working out.
  • Improved sense of well-being
  • Continues/deeper night sleep
  • Improved social skills & boost in confidence
  • Better words recall & improved memory

Libido is usually the last thing to come and the first to go when things go awry.

Good luck :+1:

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#34

Salmon is a very fatty fish. Junk food is fatty.

#36

SAM-E gave also people PSSD after they have taken SSRI. I think itā€™s the effect on serotonine from it.

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#37

Interesting. The HPA axis dysruption is also one of my theories. But how to test or fix a complex thing like this? My hydrocortisone adrenal test came back to normal.

#39

This is my list of herbs that I have been taking for a long time. Itā€™s a version of the cdnuts method herb cycling protocol. One herb one day then rotate to the next. It has worked for me for a long time for natural T production.

He Shou Wu

Black Ant Extract

Ashwaghanda

Cistanche

Trib

Tongkat Ali

Royal Jelly

Eleuthero

Horney goat weed

Schisandra Berry

Pine pollen tincture

Cordyceps

Black Maca

Iā€™m on day four of the 4-DHEA trial. Iā€™m taking 65MG times two per day. One tablet in the morning and one in the afternoon. I am seeing some indications of positive things so far but nothing thatā€™s reasonably noticeable yet. I was also below regular baseline in the specific sides that Iā€™m targeting with this 4-DHEA run prior to starting so keeping my fingers crossed.

So prior to starting I did get labs done but only for total T, Free T, LH, FSH, DHT and estradiol. I skipped the DHEA and DHEA-S because Iā€™m paying for all these labs out of pocket and money is tight. However this past summer I did have saliva DHEA and saliva DHEA-S tested and they were both low normal. Saliva hormones are showing the free portions of hormones only so I found these values extra helpful and these values being low normal in saliva sounds like its going along with what you are saying. Iā€™m going to run the same tests that I ran a few days ago prior to starting the 4-DHEA cycle in the middle of this cycle to at least see if blood estradiol is increasing. We shall see.

#40

I wonder what the mechanism is. I see SAMe being used as a cofactor to allow serotonin to go to melatonin on one of the charts attached above. But I donā€™t see SAMe being used as a co factor that allows for more serotonin production.

#41

Thanks for sharing your list. Iā€™ve experimented with some of those listed herbs such as tongkat ali, cordyceps mushroom, horny goat weed, trib, ashwagandha, & black maca. Tongkat ali works but it definitely lowers my E2 further. Iā€™m very much interested in trialing with Cistanche deserticola. I keep bumping into good stuff about it such as stimulating cholesterol to pregnenolone conversion and boosting testosterone in similar fashion to HCG. This is too good to be true but Iā€™ll give it a shot. Speaking of DHEA, it usually kicks in for me in about a week where I feel libido uptick and increased aggression. Your dose of 130mg/d is extremely high as I was cruising at 25mg Max. I suspect this dose should elevate your E2 significantly and youā€™d be able to feel high E2 symptoms should they occur. Keep us posted :+1:t2: