Bifidobacteria: friendly players in immune regulation

General Discussion
#12

I don’t really understand the gut obsession in this forum.

You can easily make some fermented foods at home and then eat them. You will find out within a few weeks whether this will help you or not.

It is like people on here have no idea how to run a basic experiment on themselves.

You need to write it down in a journal so you have a baseline. Make some sauerkraut. Then eat it daily. Then after a few weeks observe whether you are feeling better or not. Write that down also.

If you track it, you will prevent this endless cycle of speculation, in which nothing is ever started and nothing ever learned.

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#14

First of all im not saying im right about all of this, but I am predicting that I might be right about some of this.
Human commensal bifidobacteria are microaerotolerant microbes.
They are an anaerobic organism, meaning they may react negatively or die in the presence of oxygen.
You do not make some of these strains from sauerkraut or yogurt.
This is looking at select strains that may perform specific metabolic functions.

@Ozeph
As far as one pil or 20 or 200 or 2000, even a substance that could ultimately have a negative impact on health could stimulate the body to work against it. Even early anti-androgens could act as partial agonists to the AR receptor.
Look at ADT in prostate cancer as another example, it stimulates cancer cells to adapt.

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#15

I managed to ferment Bifidus which die in the presence of oxygen. You need a fermentation jar with a “water one way valve”. Fist you ferment regular acidophilus strands like lacto bacillus. After a few days, CO2 has replaced and pushed out of the jar most of the oxygen. Then you can introduce Bifidus Animalis or other Bifidus. It works, but when you start eating it oxygen is introduced and you end up with some dead bifidus.

#16

I agree with that. We’re actually saying the same thing. What you call the body working against it, I call epigenetic modifications (that makes the body work against it) for the better, or sometime the worst. By definition, the epigenome is the adaptation of our DNA to a changing environment. It’s a way the body have to be more flexible than our static DNA. The epigenome enhances or inhibits parts of our DNA to better adapt. Our problem is the best adaptation our body found to an overly aggressive environment is a grotesquely imbalanced and fluctuating state. Very uncomfortable but better than dying I guess !

The question remains how do we reverse it. If DNA is a memory, the epigenome has no memory of its prior states at all.
Dr. David Sinclair has drugs that can erase all epigenetic modification (and I mean all of them). If we were to take that, we would express only and purely our DNA as it was at conception. All the beneficial adjustments made since would have been forgotten, but so would PFS (and alcoholism or heroin addiction… It’s quite something). By the way, it is a cure IMO but is it a desirable one ? Can we survive it ?

#17

I don’t understand any endeavors on this forum that doesn’t have anything to do with the epigenome. Studies have been made, the people managing this forum agrees, (unless I’m mistaking): it’s an epigenetic disease.

The next step IMO is to find out what is the epigenome and what can be done to fix it. Unless the causes of the epigenetic changes are still present, all that remains is a dysfunctional epigenome (that messes up with proper protein creation, the basis of all hormones, enzymes, neurotransmitters etc…)

If the causes are still present, then the next step is to find out what and where they are, and what can be done to remove them. After that the epigenome can be addressed.

It really puzzles me. I have pictures of what epigenetic repair from damage caused by a severe sunburn would look like. Something some dermatologists would deem impossible. Proof of removing those epigenetic damage (well, as far as I understand it. I actually didn’t look at my histones with an electronic microscope to see if they’re rolled up properly or if methyl groups are not blocking genes anymore). I don’t understand why people are not more interested.

So you see, that makes two of us not understanding. Doesn’t matter though. we’re not important and even if we were people are free to believe what they will. So I’m working on what I can change (myself) and acknowledging what I can’t (others) and not wasting too much energy on what I can’t change. Plus, not understanding something is not a big deal unless the lack of understanding can cause harm, which is clearly not the case here.

The catch though is this one: Does what we think we understand really relate to reality or is it just delusions ?

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#18

Im looking at bacteria as a possible source of RA which could also convert dietary vit a (retinol) to RA. The question would be could this have an impact on systemic levels of RA?

Commensal bacteria generate a variety of metabolites through either direct synthesis or breakdown of dietary components that can be absorbed in the intestine and potentially travel systemically (Matsumoto et al., 2018; Wikoff et al., 2009). For example, well-characterized bacterial-derived short-chain fatty acids that are produced by bacteria in the intestine can regulate local cells as well as distant tissues

Commensal bacterial-derived retinoic acid primes host defense

Commensal bacteria provide a direct source of retinoic acid that improves host defense

data collectively reveal RA as an unexpected microbiota-derived metabolite that primes innate intestinal defense and suggests that pre- and probiotic approaches to elevate RA could prevent or combat pathogenic infection.

one example,
Bacillus cereus was described to express a bacterial aldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme ( bc ALDH1A1, KFL74159.1) that produces RA in vitro (Hong et al., 2016). Consistent with this work, we found that B. cereus produced RA when incubated with the vitamin A derivative, retinol

Now lets look at a bifido species, this would be strain dependent.
Interestingly, SFB, along with the well-known probiotic bacteria Bifidobacterium bifidum , encode bacterial ALDH enzymes that share these critical catalytic amino acid residues ( Figure 4C ). Furthermore, the predicted protein structures of ALDH enzymes from SFB and B. bifidum both exhibited marked overlap with bc ALDH1A1 ( Figure 4C ). Thus, to test whether these commensal bacterial strains generate RA in vivo , GF mice were colonized with SFB ( Figure S2B ) or B. bifidum ( Figure S2C ) and compared to GF controls. Mice colonized with ALDH-expressing SFB or B. bifidum demonstrated increased luminal RA relative to GF mice

Collectively, these results indicate that a subset of commensal bacterial populations can provide a direct source of RA in the intestine.

#19

Do you have any sense at all of when any epigenetic damage eraser “drugs” might conceivably become accessible?

#20

No idea. Dr. David Sinclair holds the patents.

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#21

I just bought this from Amazon:

They are “mood boosting” gut bacteria. I’ll tell the results if anyone is interested.

#22

Im looking at strains that have been verified to increase raldh2 expression.
This is what I have been looking at with some of my recent thoughts (check my other thread), they also sell a 42 capsule count that is a much better deal, but its out of stock at the moment.

The first person I would be looking to treat on here based on his symptoms and age would be @Dknighten
The sky could be the limit on the dosage, cost will become a factor though.

Heres an example on dosage, I wouldnt add a prebiotic yet at this point though.
Synbiotic therapy ( Bifidobacterium longum /Synergy 1) initiates resolution of inflammation in patients with active ulcerative colitis: a randomised controlled pilot trial

Test patients were given 2×1011 freeze dried viable Bifidobacterium longum in a gelatin capsule and a sachet containing 6 g of prebiotic fructo-oligosaccharide/inulin mix (Synergy 1; Orafti, Tienen, Belgium), twice daily for four weeks.

That is 200 billion cfu’s twice daily for 4 weeks (of a human strain bifido) as one example to treat a disease state, that will not be obtainable without a designed study.

#23

Let’s hear it Ozeph. I can’t tolerate lactobacillus strains because of histamine intolerance , but am currently looking at trying just bifido strains for gut treatment.

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#24

You will treat someone ? Why don’t you try on yourself ?

#25

Bifidus Longum are easy to find. but 200 billion CFU twice a day is quite a lot. I have that strand of bacteria isolated (no other bacteria with it).I’ll try to ferment some more using cabbage, inulin and potato starch (100% resistant starch). The trick is to have no oxygen so I’ll be waiting for my pickling jar.

#26

I’ve been taking the “feel good” strands of bacteria for a few days, with some inulin and potato starch (as eating fat and meat doesn’t provide much fibers) and I can say I really do feel mellow and sleep better.

I have reasons the be stressed out because of stuff happening in my life but no, I’m cruising along very smoothly.

I’ll continue the experiment but so far so good.

Ps: I don’t see this as a cure as I believe the disease to be epigenetic, but it does make life more pleasant. If there’s a cure, imho, it has to do with doing things that fixes the epigenome. I’m working hard in this direction and I have indications of epigenomic erasures, but I cannot ascertain that the causes for the epigenetic changes are gone. I’ve read that fin leaves persistent inhibitory effects on the 5ar producing cells. I’m eating in a 2 hours window and IF 22 hours a day. That should boost autophagy by a few multiples and I’m hoping my body will eat up and replace the 5ar cells with new functional ones. It’s all theories and speculations but I’m doing increasingly well.

#27

Not much difference, but then again I don’t have much symptoms left. I sleep alright, still stir and turn at the end of the night.

However, I always had lots of mucus and a bit of burning sensation at the bottom of my throat. I went to see a specialist and she said I had gastric reflux. She gave me a bucket of pills, of which I took half before feeling sick because of the pills (and I stopped and got better) but I researched the possible causes of gastric reflux. One of them was a bacterial infection of the upper digestive track. The same thing I went to see a gastro-enterologist for and she send me to the psychiatrist (don’t you love it when they do that) !

So I worked on the premise that I did have a bacterial infection of the upper digestive track. I’m taking “good mood” pro-biotics with lots of different bifidus strands and because I’m carnivore and don’t eat much fibers, I’m feeding the bacteria with cold potato starch and water (a resistant starch we can’t digest and which won’t ruin my ketosis). I feel like I’m feeding gold fish in a bowl !

Anyway. the gastric reflux is 75% gone. I barely have any mucus and no more burning sensation. That’s an indication that my guts biome has changed. I also do feel in a good mood !

Now I want to see if I need to continually reintroduce bacteria or they will just reproduce like in a normal person. If I need to take them continuously, it means what killed them to begin with is still active. If it sticks, then I did one more step forward.

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#28

I only just discovered that I have the gut microbiome profile of somebody with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which explains many of my symptoms. Finasteride is known to wreck havoc on the human microbiome. I am working with a health coach (specialises in mens HRT) who has many PFS clients, he tells me there is always significant gut microbiome dysbiosis in Post Finasteride Syndrome. I think the gut obession is warranted. Fixing these issues is much more complicated than just taking sauerkraut and seeing how you feel.

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#29

Perhaps I was too dismissive.
I think there is an overlap between our condition and others like CFS.
Typically both have low energy, problems concentrating, brain fog, verbal fluency problems …
But if this was easy to pin on the gut - we would have a therapeutic target and it would be possible to significantly improve and maintain the gains over time. And this would be noticeable among multiple users.
Personally, I have made improvements from eating fermented foods. But the gains aren’t sustained and I end up lapsing back.

#30

You may find this approach interesting, relating to the upper-gut:

Involves taking lots of vitamin C for a time, to nuke the problem.

#31

I will check it out. However, vitamin C uses the same pathways as glucose and I’m carnivore / ketogenic so I barely have any glucose or vitamin C. I react bad to more than 100-200 mg of Vit C as would any one in ketosis. Inuit eat only meat, have zero vitamin C and don’t get scurvy. Some Inuits did get scurvy when they helped old expeditions to the north and ate European food.
Vitamin C is found in plants and seems to be linked to sugar, starch and fibers (all carbs).

IMO all the diseases on this forum could be classified in the epigenetic disease group. There is a distinction as the genes being suppressed vary from one disease to the other, and also from one individual to the other suffering from the same cause (PFS for example). IMO, science is still in its infancy for curing those diseases and there’s no meds available. However, the regimen I follow goes along what was found to activate the body’s natural epigenome fixing mechanism. It seems to work for me as I clearly see signs of epigenetic damage on my skin being repaired, something a dermatologist told me would never happen. (He said it was for life)

As for gut bacteria, it seems some of us have it all messed up. I believe the cause to be epigenetic and you’re right, if simply taking probiotics would cure us we would have found it a decade ago. Nonetheless, we can push in good bacteria that will ward off the bad ones and it will be dose dependant until the cause for them dying in the first place is fixed. From what I get, I feel a little better, gastric reflux is almost completely gone and I don’t get constipation which can be a problem on a carnivore diet. But my main PFS symptoms are not much changed.
Anything that helps is good right ?

Same goes with leaky guts which we often get on this forum. Ketogenic diet fixes that from what I read and so does carnivore diet (as it is mildly ketogenic, depending on the protein / fat ratio. 1 animal protein calorie to 2.7 animal fat calorie would be fully ketogenic. That’s what I do.)

#32

Resurrecting this thread because I want to try pro bitoc again. I have very poor comprehension. Are you saying these strains should not be taken by people who took acccutane? I should avoid vitamin A I feel in abundance. Is there a safe bifio to try for me?