Atrophy of subcutaneous adipic layer around the eyes

Symptoms Physical
#21

fourtythree,

I have had similar symptoms to your own. My face completely dried up to the point of large flakes of skin peeling off of my face. It also seemingly left my cheeks and eye sockets gaunt, and produced “crows feet” around my eyes even when I smile slightly. These effects did not occur overnight however, and were the result of almost two years of use. That’s why I’m still weary about jumping to conclusions.

My question was directed towards those who theorized that DHT is responsible for maintaining the fatty layer around the eyes, and for the people who theorize that restoring DHT/testosterone would reverse the process. These theories do not seem very likely, given the reasons I stated in my last post.

You are right, though. While the primary action of finasteride is alleged to be the reduction of DHT through 5-AR inhibition – it could also be acting in any multitude of ways throughout the body, including destroying the fatty layer around the eyes by some unknown mechanism. I believe it to be those possible unknown mechanisms, and not the inhibition of androgens, that cause side effects that some of us may be seeing in the face.

If this is the case, then the absence of finasteride alone should be enough to undo the damage, assuming the body is actually even capable of making those types of repairs.

Regarding testosterone – I was lucky enough to be on HRT the entire time that I’ve been on propecia – that is to say, my testosterone levels have been consistently maintained at endocrinologist-managed healthy levels for my age. After discontinuing propecia, I continued on HRT. This is yet another reason that I do not implicate testosterone in the maintenece of facial tissue. My testosterone levels were fine.

DHT, again, being naturally low in females leads me to discount the idea that it has much to do with facial fat. I don’t think increased facial fat counts as an androgenic feature.

#22

Hi JamieVegas,
I’m pleased that you thought about this and have unique, and very relevant info to contribute.
Your argument that diminished DHT levels were unlikely the cause of the ‘melting’ subcutaneous eye-orbit fat layer is cogent, but also, beware that it is true that men and women may have totally different ways of storing fat; suggesting that men and women have much different hormonal systems and so their use of hormones in ‘fat’ homeostasis might be very different. This is speculation on my part, but it is the single buttress of your argument.
Your HRT argument that more T could reverse the effects of FIN is tight and I have no counter. Good to know.
Your argument that the absence of FIN should be enough to reverse the effects sounds cogent, but look at the anecdotal stuff on this site: people are mostly not getting better.
Also, you were on FIN while being monitored in HRT for 2 years. Myself and a few others have been mildly disfigured within weeks of FIN use. Your story is common though.
Please keep researching, thinking, and discussing this with me. At least we are in agreement that FIN may have rogue, aberrant affects.
I would happy to look the way I did 6 days ago, and be a warning to others at the same time.

#23

fourtythree,

It appears that dry skin is a known/verified side effect of finasteride.

Meyler’s Side Effects of Endocrine and Metabolic Drugs reports, " Finasteride caused reduced libido, headache, and dry skin. Dry skin was reported in 68% of users of flutamide and in only 27% of users of finasteride…"

However, dry skin alone does not cause winkles. According to an article by Paula Begoun, author of several skin-care books:

"Dry skin doesn’t wrinkle any more or less than oily skin. Oily skin may look less wrinkled, which means it can have a smoother appearance, but wrinkles are caused by sun exposure, genetic inheritance, or illness, not dryness. All the moisturizers in the world won’t change a wrinkle, although moisturizers can temporarily make dry skin look smoother.

Moreoever, it widely accepted that 80-90% of all visible skin aging is related to UV induced from the sun and artificial lighting. The longer wavelengths of UV radiation cause damage to the DNA of the lowest, regenerative layers of skin.

In rare cases of genetic 5AR deficiency in males (deficient from birth), the only noted effect is feminization. There are no reports of accelerated aging or wrinkling of the skin. However, given that the condition is so rare, no solid conclusion can be drawn.

Eunichs (males with both testicles removed) are not said to experience accellerated aging, but rather the opposite.

I would be very surprised if females have skin that is fundamentally different than male skin. In females with polycystic ovarian syndrome, a spike in testosterone (and thus DHT) causes their skin to react in the same way as male skin. They can experience male pattern hair loss and grow facial hair in male patterns. Conversely, males that undergo male-to-female hormone treatement with estrogen tend to experience softer skin with a thicker supporting adipose layer. (They do not, however, lose facial hair, but only becasue androgenic signaling is irreversible.) Given these facts alone it would stand to reason that skin is fundamentally the same between genders, and the varying expression of hormones between genders is the only differentiating factor in how the skin develops.

With all of the above said, I am hoping to better illustrate why I do not advocate hormone restoration as a solutiuon to our problems. The half-life of finasteride being 6 hours, I think it is safe for us to assume that we are no longer being damaged.

Would you mind posting a picture of the affected portions of your face? If not publicly, you could send them directly to me. I would like to verify that we are talking about the same sort of facial degeneration.

I really wish more people would chime in with specifics related to the duration of thier use of finasteride, the timing of the facial effects, and how long it has taken to see improvements after cessation of the drug.

It would also be thrilling to see someone post a “before and after” comparison. Surely, someone has two pictures of themselves smiling that are a few years apart. Drivers licenses, school IDs, family photos, yearbook photos, etc. If you are concerned about privacy, cover the unaffected portions of your face, or send the pictures privately to trusted individuals on the board.

There is certainly enough anecdotal evidence out there to raise concerns about facial atrophy, but I have yet to see any concrete evidence. Unlike the sexual side effects of finasteride, this is a side effect that we can quantitatively qualify and prove! What is stopping us? Embarrassment?