Update: used 10mg Vortioxetine tabs for two days and crashed hard. I’d wager if a study were conducted they’d find Vortioxetine raises neurosteroids just like most other antidepressants. Stay safe guys.
Hi Borax. When you say you crashed, what do you mean by that? Also, according to the studies available, we are deficient in certain neurosteroids; why would raising them not work for us? Thank you.
Guys, you are playing with fire, i’m from PSSD forum here, do not use SSRI ever. We have exactly the same symptoms like here, i woke up during my taper from Paroxetine completly numb to external stimuli, rubbery skin, anaesthesia, emotional anhedonia, weakness, oily skin, anxiety, change of oddor, extreme hair loss (my pillow was full of hair exactly after crash) Do not do this to you!
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The whole 9 yards. Insane anxiety, impotence, anhedonia, derealization, gastroparesis, all that good stuff.
Because I speculate this raises neurosteroids the same way as other antidepressants, through 3a-HSD, an enzyme that also lowers androgens. As you know, messing with androgen levels is like playing with fire in PFS. I wasn’t aware of Vortioxetine doing so as I didn’t find any literature stating that.
Thought Vortioxetine wasn’t an SSRI. You guys should probably sticky that on the PSSD forum if you haven’t already.
Thank you for describing. In your pfs state do you have all those symptoms anyway but to a lesser degree or are those symptoms that only present during crashes? I’m still trying to get an insight into what people mean when they say crashes. I’m still trying to figure out if my terrible symptoms are going in cycles of crashes or not.
hey borax, what is the effect of lowered androgens on a cellular level? sorry, im not firm with it.
why you put mirtazapine on the list?, i read it does induce 3a-HSD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%CE%B1-Hydroxysteroid_dehydrogenase#Clinical_significance
it says activating 3aHSD helps building allopregnenolone which i thought is beneficial for pfs…im confused
[quote=“jakobi, post:27, topic:30490, full:true”]
hey borax, what is the effect of lowered androgens on a cellular level?[/quote]
It’s pretty much what Finasteride, Accutane etc. do, just by a diferent mechanism. In a nut shell: Reducing androgens leads to overexpressed androgen receptors. When we quit the medicine androgen levels increase and these now higher levels link up with overexpressed receptors “overwhelming” the body and resulting in a shut down of the androgen receptor signaling.
For some reason, unlike most patients our system does not return to baseline when we mess with androgen.
Increasing Allo is probably helpful for us. We will see when these analogues are out. Inducing 3aHSD may help with that, but reducing androgens does not. I am a bit surprised that borax crashed so quickly, because often people have a small honeymoon period when reducing androgens before they crash. But in the end, messing with androgens most often leads to more trouble for us.
Unfortunately, many antidepressants seem to work that way. It’s ironic, this condition gives us depression and we cannot even treat it, because most depression treatments do the exact same thing in a different way. This condition really covers all bases.
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@Tzinkman When I’m not crashed I have derealization although nowhere near as severe as it used to be, anxiety is basically nil except for some days, could get my dick up whenever I wanted and had some decent orgasms, anhedonia depended on the day but I had some good days. This is just regular PFS cycling rather than crashes, at least IME, and if you have to ask I’d guess it’s the same for you too.
@andrew89 Northern Star is spot on.
@Northern_Star One man’s medicine is another man’s poison. Also, our bodies seem to need a very specific amount of androgens to work efficiently. I did quite well on soy flour for example, another anti-androgen that blocks the AR, but not so much on this stuff. So the degree of blocking is also important.
thanks @Northern_Star now that one fits the puzzle…at least for me:
when i REDUCED mirtazapine, i felt strenght coming back. when i went completly off, it felt like a bit honeymoon…1 week onlay but yas. the honeymoon when quitting fin was rather 6weeks and very strong, i felt like i was on EPO.
so ok,most ADs = lowered androgens => AR upregulation.
so if insomnia is my main problem, would it be safest to do like @Andrea take a benzo for sleep and maybe agomelatine as it is a AD that doesnt mess with androgens? rather than teking bupropiion,mirtazapine,valdoxan and zopiclone?
just to have a life, and maybe SAGE217 helps.
anyone tried the 5aDHP, allopregnenalone precursor?
so we must not use Anti Depressants…??
I want to resolve my Brain fog(headache, fatigue, depression, no motivation, feeling not reality, dizziness all the time etc…) Using Vortioxetine or other AD.
But I’m afraid crashing…
Sage 217 will be releasing after 3 years. But 3 years
is very long ㅠㅠ. This time i dont care about sexual symptoms. i want to live my life just well.
Any advice?? I can live no sex life. But I can’t live with brainfog!!!
I just ordered st johns wort to treat my depression.
actually there might be something very similar (i read its the same chemic but intravnous) to SAGE 217 coming FDA approved this year (BREXANALON), but its for postpartum depression . anyway, should be poosilbe to try that at least off lable for us
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/allopregnanolone-may-soon-be-approved-as-a-fast-acting-antidepressant.25379/
old msg but just fyi agomelatine caused my pssd
Has anyone experimented with Tianeptine?
I don’t suffer from depression, but I’ve used it occasionally because I heard good things about it for mental effects and such.
Haven’t noticed much at the usual 3x12.5 mg dose though.
Wouldn’t we want to induce 3ahsd to stimulate allopregnanolone?
Why casually, cryptically mention something so specific without getting into the theory more. That should be way more interesting (if it’s even relevant) than asking for data about antidepressants (which won’t even contribute to a cure, apparently, just be less bad). Annoying.
Can’t even wrap my head around the weird implications of that casual sentence.
No need to be annoyed by two year old posts.
Borax was searching for antidepressants to combat depression. He asked specifically for antidepressants that do not induce 3α-HSD, because most do. The idea being that induction of 3α-HSD leads to lower cellular androgen levels (specifically DHT). And, of course, lowering DHT is something Finasteride does and it’s why many of us are here. The induction of 3α-HSD is a potential mechanism why some people suffer the same persistent side effects from antidepressants that some people get from Finasteride. Both classes of drugs lower DHT. Hence, borax’ intention was to look for antidepressants that do not. Would such ADs be a cure? No. But clearly a cure is not exactly close, so looking for safe symptomatic treatments makes sense. Unfortunately, there aren’t many.
The key here is to avoid antiandrogenic effects. The admins have compiled an extensive overview, why these persistent side effects from Finasteride and other 5ar inhibitors, antidepressants etc. may be considered a Post-Androgen-Deprivation Syndrome: https://www.propeciahelp.com/post-androgen-deprivation-syndrome-abstract/
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damn bro oily skin? exactly me, i lowered my DHT alot with dutasteride then i got oily skin when the opposite should happen, this is really interesting, and what’s really interesting is that you got that from ssri, didnt even miss with androgens