Alterations of gut microbiota composition in post-finasteride patients: a pilot study. Melcangi, 2020

Science PFS Research
#41

Id like to know more about this one. I was browsing some random pubs and saw this on anti-acne treatment,

New therapeutical strategies
As to the development of new substances and their introduction into medical practice, a topical antiandrogenic treatment would be an interesting approach. So far it has been disappointing probably because P. acnes is
able to metabolize androgens applied to the skin,

|## Androgen Metabolism|
https://www.glowm.com/section_view/heading/androgen-metabolism/item/278#:~:text=Androgen%20metabolism%2C%20in%20the%20broadest,than%20just%20inactivation%20and%20excretion.
Androgen metabolism, in the broadest sense, includes the secretion, transport, tissue uptake, peripheral transformation, and excretion of C-19 steroids. Increased knowledge of androgen metabolism has widened the concept of the function of steroid metabolism to include more than just inactivation and excretion. Metabolic transformation of secreted androgens produces steroids with variable effects and potency; some, in fact, are estrogens.

3 Likes
#42

When I see the line above just to decipher the text, you could say the p.acnes bacteria might protect the host from antiandrogenic treatment.

So I was trying to find some info to back up what I just highlighted, and man did I find one hell of a crazy patent pending.
You all should take a look, its fairly recent.

Nano-vesicles derived from bacteria of genus propionibacterium and use thereof

1 Like
#43

I donā€™t really get this reaction. Iā€™m probably missing something, but I donā€™t see where it says in this study that it was performed on rats? Why would you get angry about a study being done on rats when itā€™s being done on human beings?

ā€œPFS patients were recruited through the Italian finasteride side effects network . Twenty-three healthy men, aged 25ā€“51 years who reported persistent sexual and mental health side effects after the use of 1ā€“1.25 mg daily of finasteride (i.e., Propecia, Proscar, or generic finasteride) for androgenetic alopecia, were considered in the case group. Only subjects who had suspended finasteride treatment at least 3 months earlier, had not used drugs known to potentially interfere with microbiome analysis, and were not affected by psychiatric disorders or sexual dysfunction before finasteride use, were included.ā€

#44

I was referring to an entirely different study.

#45

Absolutely, I share your sentiments.

#46

I also suspect that the alteration of the intestinal microbiome is only a consequence and not the cause of the problem. If you go through the old posts, Douglasmich (rest in peace), before he died, had tried to do at least six fecal transplants, but nothing changed. I suspect we are still a long way from the root of the problem. I have little faith in research, because if you notice, there is no cure for any disease. All diseases are currently incurable, except those that can run their course or be eliminated with antibiotics.

4 Likes
#47

Didnt someone try it already? I think @silentpain89, also, i wouldnt expect any effects from that aslong as the other chronic effects (mitochondria, inflammation, gut) are not fixed

#48

As far as I know ibs hasnā€™t caused anyone to die

1 Like
#49

Yeah if we only have a chance to try injecting allopregnanolone to a few or even one person who is suffering a lot of pfs sides that would be the best way to see if it is a good way to improve our condition.

Iā€™m down to being a rat and I can buy this stuff but who is gonna inject me with this thatā€™s another question. I mean I can try to do this myself but my knowledge in this area is low.

#50

Douglasmich committed suicide because his conditions worsened extremly. He tried fecal transplant, but the worsening didnā€™t stop.

1 Like
#51

Thereā€™s no let up in the deteriation for s few of us which makes things very worrying. Doubt Allo will help with damaged receptors.

1 Like
#52

I looked back at his posts awhile back when you said something. I dont know the whole story but it seemed very sad as to what he might have been resorting to with these fecal transplants. He said something about not having any money and he was self administering them at home. Im not sure if that means he just had a buddy and was using his stools or if he ordered something online.
Either way its not the best or accurate example of how to look at this as far as possible treatment.

I also think maybe there could be a case where your not even trying to target the microbiome that resides in the stool.

#53

Im not saying it is a complete dead end, since i was only one person who tried it. But SAGE-217 made me worse and made my tinnitus go to 10/10 levels. I tried it for 2 weeks although i got worse at the end of the 1st week. And trust me it was legit SAGE.217 made by a company who sells legit research chemicals and cost me 2,500 euro.

Actually its one of my theories that when we stop taking Fin, our brain swim in Allo which lead to the honeymoon phase who most of us had, and then due to altering of gaba Receptors triggered through the extreme high Allo-Levels, we get the crash, and the rest you know about.
But this doesnā€™t explain to me why ppl get screwed after half a pill.

1 Like
#54

I took a quarter Proscar pill and it felt like my brain was being zapped while having mild hallucinations and a super panic attack. Since then Iā€™ve had chronic inflammation in my gut, canā€™t control stress etc. That was 13 years ago now. Nothing short of a miracle is going to fix that, thatā€™s permanent damage. In my opinion the result of a drug induced damage. No honeymoon phase for me.

#55

Yeah exactly in these case is why that the theory with DHT rising and causing a silencing in AR is extremely not convincing. The damage must be done in some other way. Exactly like a SSRI. Citalopram (in one study) was able to reduce the connectivity in most brain regions after 30 min of taking itā€¦

1 Like
#56

Damage is what led to the silencingā€¦ apoptosis, neuroinflammation -> silencing

#57

You cannot state that as a fact - thereā€™s no evidence to support this.

1 Like
#58

just to follow-up on this,
Influence of Intratumor Microbiome on Clinical
Outcome and Immune Processes in Prostate Cancer

We found that the presence
and absence of specific microbes are strongly correlated with known biomarkers of prostate cancer,
including increased androgen receptor expression, prostate-specific antigen level, immune-associated
gene dysregulation, stem-cell related gene overexpression, cancer pathways, and known chromosomal
alterations. Our results provide important insight on potential mechanisms by which intratumor
microbes may greatly contribute to prostate cancer progression and prognosis. We hope our results
can be validated in future studies, and the key microbes that we identified can be used as effective
targets for more specialized prebiotic and probiotic treatments for prostate cancer.

Based on recent findings, we believe that the prostate microbiome may possess a significant role in the
PC metastasis, the regulation of PCSC gene expression, and a vital regulator of known PC risk factors,
including elevated prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and androgen levels

updating this to include the source, some pretty recent info if you look at the date.

Influence of Intratumor Microbiome on Clinical ā€¦ - MDPI

www.mdpi.com ā€ŗ pdf
](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6694/12/9/2524/pdf)

PDF

Sep 5, 2020 - including increased androgen receptor expression, prostate-specific antigen level, immune-associated gene dysregulation, stem-cell related ā€¦

1 Like
#59

Hereā€™s another one. So could similar thoughts be applied systemically?

The microbiome of the prostate

The intestinal microbiome plays a significant role in modulation of the immune system and carcinogenesis. An increasing number of studies are now investigating the microbiome and the effect of dysbiosis on urological diseases. Studies investigating the bacterial composition of urine and prostate tissue as well as fecal bacteria clearly demonstrated an association between the alteration in bacterial composition and prostate cancer. Furthermore, patients with and without prostate cancer seem to have a distinct cluster of bacteria that alter metabolic pathways including androgen and testosterone synthesis. Apart from the interaction of the immune system and microbial composition, there is compelling evidence that the microbiome is involved in modulation of treatment efficacy. Therefore, a dysbiosis of the intestinal microbiome compromises the efficacy of PD-1 immunotherapy. Furthermore, androgen deprivation therapies (ADT), as well as androgen receptor targeting agents (ARTA) including bicalutamide, enzalutamide, and abiraterone acetate, seem to have an influence on the intestinal microbiome.

Again looking at these past two articles, you could make a case for at least checking on a few Viome test results to see if theres any specific microbes or distinct clusters that might be present or absent.

1 Like
#60

Combining a few thoughts here when it comes to possible therapy. Maybe a type of goal that could be dependant on bacterial composition.
Certain regulators whether thats bacteria itself or its metabolites.
A type of dysbiosis.
Theory.
ā€œEnhance androgen-dependent behaviors both by supplementing endogenous androgens and by increasing androgenic responsiveness via increased AR expression.ā€

1 Like