All about DHT -easy to understand-

General Discussion
#1

I just came across this article on DHT in Google groups. I don’t know if it has been posted already, but hear it is. All about DHT and what it does. How it all works. In simpler terms.

Taken from: mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm

DHT - Is It All Bad?
by Patrick Arnold

A considerable chunk of my workday is always spent answering people’s
questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the biggest
concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related side
effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It seems
that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil androgen
byproduct that serves no purpose in the body but to make our prostates
blow up and our hair fall out.

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those
good guy/bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many
people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in the
body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is
probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will
help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone Is A Prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone.
However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried
through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain
(CNS), skin, genitals-practically everything but muscle-the active
androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a
prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action
of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent
area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very
little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body
to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into
DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in
these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than
testosterone - it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen
receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the
formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in
physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due
to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder,
however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this
disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have
ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs,
their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels
remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other
adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic/body hair and
underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual function is
often disrupted also.

Testosterone Is The Active Androgen In Muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the
body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is
actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is
formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the
muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called
3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary
active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT is
not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some anabolic
activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that of an
equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown by
3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a, 17b-diol. If this
enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit very
potent anabolic effects on muscle.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the
active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct
anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the
full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I
specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous
system that lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and
increased resistance to psychological and physical stress-not to
mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked
testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed
significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on
here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct
anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it
is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the
body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS,
which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to
greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a
reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors
(such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti-Estrogen Effects Of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much
discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar
learn this the hard way-by developing a case of gynecomastia. By
reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have
fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch ####.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways
that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens
activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive
antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced
RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly
block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the
activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue
showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent
inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione.
5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while
androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus/pituitary to decrease the
secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of
gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for
estrogen production testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot
aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular
utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be
discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, Estrogen, And The Prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the
general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The
inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for
prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst
most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must
understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate
growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and
cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is
connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This
takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized,
healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early
and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the
constant levels of high levels of androgens in the body. However, if
androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink
in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR
(recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is
deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a
wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental
growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high
estrogen/androgen ratio-a condition common in older men-is highly
correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with
saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of
prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. While,
aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or
androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of
monkeys, but these effects are reversed by addition of an aromatase
inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH. Or, probably more
accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of
androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few
of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do
that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body,
which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the
body.

“DHT can actually be used to treat benign
prostate hypertrophy (BPH)!”
As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will
signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The
decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be
produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The
resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then
apparently results in a regression of BPH. The clinical application of
this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 Dihydrotestosterone for
use in androgenotherapy.

The following two paragraphs taken from the patent study illustrates
the results:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----

In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to
modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5
to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the
plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ ml (from
0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); …

#2

It is a bad idea to look to Steroid abuse sources for balanced medical opinions. There is a lot of truth in what this guy has said, the same is truth of other such peopel and articles.

However there is also some rubbish spoken as well and this guy is NOT soemone who is giveing balanced opinions.

Honestly it is not worth looking to such sources.

#3

Hypo, how come you haven’t answered my pm messages to you yet?

#4

I thought I answered your pm via the thread?

I’ll have another look at what you sent.

#5

i agree with you 110%. i was following along to the article until he said “heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked
testosterone with Proscar” , then he lost me. we shouldnt take advice from the body builder guys. lets not forget that a lot of these guys abuse testosterone, steroids, and other drugs, and then pay the price later because of the shady advice thats given in their community.

#6

Exactly.

Not only that but this guy often offers advice which is aimed at getting people to use certain products he sells which are pure snake oil or worse still questionable and potentially dangerous.

#7

Well agree or not it’s a fact that bodybuilders are responsible for PCT. Without them nobody would be using Serms or HCG.

These guys are actually using the drugs and documenting their effects. Most steroid users know more than 90% of Dr’s about how those drugs work

#8

if they really knew more then the doctors do, then they wouldnt abuse them.

#9

Using Steroids is not necessarily abusing them. Obviously Propecia is worse for some than using steroids.

If a Dr puts you on TRT you will be using 100mg of Cypionate for the rest of your life while a casual steroid user will use 500mg for 10 weeks a year and only for a few years,

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#10

This is complete rubbish and a fallacy and I’ll explain why.

A) SERMs and HCG were NOT created by bodybuilders or indeed for bodybuilders, they were created by the medical community for treating medical conditions- nothing to do with bodybuilders. To say that nobody would be using them without bodybuilders is ludicrous. These drugs have a primary license treating certain conditions and they absolutely would be used to treat other conditions off license where that seemed pertinent, as is seen with all medications. These drugs did not appear or come to the attention of doctors because of the actions of bodybuilders who abuse them. The term PCT (post cycle therapy) is what they created, nothing more than a coined phrase for the misuse of these medications. In fact one could easily argue that Testosterone and all things associated with raising it has been tarred by the brush of bodybuilders. The whole image of male hormonal health has probably been set back by over twenty years thanks to this association, many hypogonadism support groups and associations are fully against steroid abuse. E.G androids.org.uk/

B) Most steroid abusers have a very limited idea of what they are doing to their bodies. They are unqualified, arrogant and know a lot about the actual substances they are talking, but tend to know little to nothing about the effects of taking them on their respective endocrine systems. Every bodybuilder and his dog thinks that is some quasi expert in endocrinology after reading a bit of advice on roids on some half arsed website. Ninety nine times out of a hundred in depth questioning of such people reveals how little they know and how much they wholesale cut and paste articles that they have limited understanding of. Here is an example of some of the inherent problems with abusing steroids that the people doing the abusing do not understand (taken from a discussion between myself and your typical supposedly-know-it-all steroid abusers who have no iota of the potential issues involved.

C) If most steroid abusers knew could know what they were doing, you would not see so many of them turning up in fertility clinics years latter, or so many requiring plastic surgery for induced gynecomastia etc

D) When you say they know more than most doctors, I would disagree if you mean they know anything that allows them to avoid the potential pitfalls. They know more in a very limited/strict sense when it comes to knowing the profuile of the drugs concerned and likely effects as has been noted. But they very rarely understand pathology in any meaningful way. In any case, you would hardly have a general doctor play around with your endocrine system. An individual should only consider a competent and forward thinking endocrinologist/andrologist when it comes to endocrine illness of endocrine altering medications. Now if you are telling me you think that the bodybuilders know more about such things than the aforementioned doctors then I am telling you that you are categorically wrong.

If you do not have a medical need, if there is no clinically defined diagnosis or reason to take them, that is precisely what it is.

That is so wrong it is hilarious.

It shows a complete misunderstanding of the long term safety of testosterone replacement, whilst at the same time showing a complete misunderstanding of the inherent lack of safety with testosterone used to supraphysiological levels.

Very high levels of testosterone used over short periods of time can cause significant damage to the pituitary and cause hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, the same cannot be said of TRT. Very high levels of testosterone can also cause serious/life threatening problems in those with underlying undiagnosed liver or heart disease (far more common than you would think). Very high levels of testosterone can also cause serious/life threatening problems relating to the viscosity of blood and cause strokes. I am sure you will disagree with me, but given every single doctor worth their salt in the world and every single medical body and institution is in accordance with me in being anti AAS abuse, I don’t really think you can say anything that is credible in disagreement.

By the way, a doctor is more likely to put you on 100mg of testosterone ethanate for hypogoandism than he is to put you on 100mgs of testosterone cyprionate. Perhaps you have got mixed up in your medications lol. Cyprionate would only last two to three days in the body as opposed to a week- your dosage indicates you have made a mistake. Check that with your endocrinologist friend :wink: whilst you at that you can get back to me on his contact details given the post where you questioned who I was.

#11

"By the way, a doctor is more likely to put you on 100mg of testosterone ethanate for hypogoandism than he is to put you on 100mgs of testosterone cyprionate. Perhaps you have got mixed up in your medications lol. Cyprionate would only last two to three days in the body as opposed to a week- your dosage indicates you have made a mistake. Check that with your endocrinologist friend whilst you at that you can get back to me on his contact details given the post where you questioned who I was. "

First, who are you ? If you know so much how come you’re not an MD. I personally could care less who you are. I got private emails to lay off you so I did, not anymore.

Oh really Hypo, Cyp only lasts 2-3 days in the body ? You are wrong, dead wrong. Enathate may last a day or two longer but cyp lasts 12-14 days and is oil based just like Enathate and is prescribed more often then Enathate for HypoG

So you think 100 mg of Cyp a week won;t cause long term problems for the HPTA, again you are wrong.

SERMS weren’t invented for bodybuilders but they are the ones who started using them to restore the HPTA

In this case you read your books wrong. You have no real world experience and it’s showing

The latest estimate is over 10 million peoplehave used steroids, if they are as dangerous as you say where are the mass gravesites ? Where are the mass liver and kidney transplants ?

Go read your books, you would never make it in the real world

Read this or if you like yo can read the insert included with cypionate to find out for yourself you are wrong.

Testosterone cypionate is an injectable oil which contains testosterone with the cypionate ester attached to the testosterone molecule. The ester denotes the release pattern of the test after it is injected into the body. This particular ester gives the testosterone an active life of 15-16 days, although blood levels of this drug fall sharply five days post-administration, testosterone levels are still above baseline after a week (24). Stable blood levels can be achieved with once per week injections.

And if anyone doesn’t believe that here is the depo T insert included with the drug where it actually says to inject every 2- 4 weeks

www.pfizer.com/pfizer/download/uspi_dep … terone.pdf

#12

Jim1234, please use quote tags around the bit that you quoted from hypo. For people not following the whole thread closely they may not pick up on the fact that it was quoted.

#13

Using Steroids is not necessarily abusing them. Obviously Propecia is worse for some than using steroids.

“If you do not have a medical need, if there is no clinically defined diagnosis or reason to take them, that is precisely what it is”

Well nobody needed Propecia for any medical illness so what you are saying is anyone who used (or uses) it is abusing it. I guess if we listen to you anyone who drinks a beer or ever took a hit off a joint is an abuser by Hypo’s standards. After all there was “no clinically defined diagnosis”

#14

Jim,

As far as I am aware people were distressed about losing their hair and Propecia was prescribed too them to prevent this. It was prescribed being a drug that was passed for medical use in this context.

A great pity that it was passed for use and an error by the medical community granted.

But it was not abuse.

Taking AAS without medical need for the purposes of bodybuilding when there is no ailment that is being treated and in doing so risking ill health, that is abuse.

When someone takes a medicine/drug that is prescribed to treat a condition there are often potential problems or side effects and the pros and cons are weighed up in a professional medical environment. The difference there is, that you have a problem, an ailment to start out with. With AAS abuse in bodybuilding people are risking ill health when there is no ill health and there is no ailment. The pros cannot outweigh the cons froma medical position because there are no pros given that nothing requires treatment.

People who abuse AAS have set back the cause of male health 20 years. That is something that even Dr Malcolm Carruthers has said and he has been one of the worlds leading andrologists for over 20 years.

Taking AAS to boost testosterone to supraphysiological levels, boosting testosterone so that it is FAR higher than that found in any normal male body brings with it certain and very real medical risks to health. That is why you will not find a single medical professional worth their salt who will agree that AAS abuse is anything other than a bad thing.

The entire weight of the medical world and of worldwide medical opinion stands against you and directly opposes your view. You will not find a single cardiologist, endocrinologist, andrologist, hepatologist etc etc etc who is worth their salt who will agree with your opinions. Your opinion on this matter leaves you in the medical wilderness along with your buddies down the gym and on your bodybuilding forums and along with a few crack pot doctors and biochemists who should be struck off who are using you to line their pockets.

You gain credence from your conversations on bodybuiding forums and gyms and speak in very limited circles in which you are regrettably not exposed to reality often enough.

I know you are following my every post around this forum in a childish attempt to put me down, because you are so rude and aggressive, because your mentality is that the person who shouts loudest is correct you think it will help you. You’rer wrong, it will make people dislike you and who will it help?

Where is the positive?

I am sorry you find the need to comment on everything I say instead of trying to help people. I have since I have came here tried my best to help people and answer peoples pms or question and I have tried to do that and give time and consideration to people in the nicest way I can. I feel I can help because of the fact that most of my knowledge and experience relates to hormonal disorders, endocrinogy, pathology and is in keeping with the problem of this nature, I am not sure AAS abuse and bodybuilding is as readily transferable a commodity. But if you do something positive I guess that would be a start. I have never tried to replace the actions of an endocrinologist something you have continually accused me of. I limit myself to offering a layman’s interpretation of pathlogy, TRT etc based upon my experience. I have never acted in such a way as to suggest to anyone that I can be a replacement for an endocrinologist. I talk in terms of what should happened, I say what I see and if something is amiss talk about second opinions, or asking their endocrinologist about a given treatment or dosage etc. I am only offering layman’s help just as is found on many support groups. I also never suggest taking medication/drugs without prescription and never act in any way that would be to step outside the remit of a layman by acting as though I prescribe.

But you are guilty of what it is you accuse me of because you do offer advice on what frugs to take by your own admission by creating cycles or PCT for people to take.

I am going to just try and help people get the best info and give them “layman’s” advice. I am going to bust a gut to try and genuinely help people, maybe you can do the same and we can put this behind us, this is a support group after all not a gladiatorial area.

I am going to hold myself to this statement.

I am not going to be abusive towards you, neither am I going to be aggressive. I am also not getting into a further war of words and this is my last post to you. I will not answer further anything you have to say on the website so that people here do not have to listen to divisive squabbling that would do neither of us any favors….it was probably wrong of me to have even made this post….in any event it is the last of this kind.

If you could make any post you have without swearing and being abusive I would appreciate that even if I do not agree with what you have to say.

#15

This is just an assumption but Patrick Arnold probably knows more about dht and 5-alpha reductase inhibitors than most doctors. To say that he offers advice which are aimed at getting people to use products that are pure snake oil, I find a bit fallacious. I think Mark Mcgwire can probably attest to that. So far I have been to three doctors and all they have done is recommnd that I see a sex therapist and take a PDE5 inhibitor, I think that is pure snake oil. There is no question that steroids are dangerous, but virtually all drugs are dangerous. One recent study estimates that 100,000 people die each year from the known side effects of prescription drugs.

Has anyone even tried to contact Patrick Arnold to see if he may have any suggestions for a solution to our problem?

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