Shippen would perscribe HcG to you too. You should get to him, if not Jacobs. Not to keep preaching, but I want to see you and everyone have hope and get better…
GL
Gents -yesterday was a decent day for me! Far more full in penis and balls than I have been since the holidays. Only two major changes - had a bit too much beer on Sunday with all the football games and also took both Avena and Nettle root yesteday. Beyond the obvious shrinkage temporaray abatement I noticed that my member actually had both some color and feeling - it is strange that this is noticeable but this is what fin has taken away for me. I should have popped some Levitra and nailed my wife but was a bit nervous.
This am things are worse than yesterday but not as bad as normal. As with all of you I know the inevitable is coming back - but would love to stay where I am. Former’s theory on good days after tying one on is that it depletes your T - your body compensates but releasing LH and you get a rising T boost. Kind of makes sense especially given my T is not terrible. My guess with me is that this will turn into estrogen or get bound by SHBG and then I am screwed.
Not that drinking to excess is the answer, this actually has given me the tinest bit of hope. Perhaps somehow I can get my body to stay here if I get the estrogen and SHBG under control.
Right now I am the ultimate supplement guy but most are probably doing nothing. Once I deplete my stock I may stay away from any T boosting and just focus on E and SHBG
Not sure about alcohol. Most everyone else seems to take a serious downturn after a night of drinking. I dont drink and didnt pre Fin either so I can’t speak for this myself.
I’ve stayed away from the T boosters too. They really amped up my anxiety. I deal alot better off them.
Let us know how you are doing on the Nettle Root if you can.
Glad you’re feeling better and GL in the Super Bowl.
Boston - yes, I know it is very strange and I never really see this unless I drink more than typical. As far as the T boosters I will stay the course because some I have seen some impact in the past but I am suspicious as my T level stayed almost exactly where it was before while cycling all these (7 day cycle so one each day of the week). At roughly 700 total T, this really does not seem to be my main problem. The problem is free T percentage which is below range and the high E and SHBG levels. Not sure if this is true but Free T is supposed to be the most directly related to flaccid size aka shrinkage issues.
As a note, today is defeinitely worse but not at lowest point. Pecker is actually slightly flush/pink instead of normal gray. However, after every time I ejaculate it takes a days for my nuts to stop hurting/tingling - today is no different
Right now taking along with the 7 day T cycle (Trib, Maca, Tongkat, Ginseng, HGW, Yohimbe, L-Citruline) and everyday vitamins/aminos (D3, E, C, ZMA, L-Arginine, Galric, DHEA), I am taking the following for E/SHBG daily:
Tamoxifen 10 mg, Stinging Nettle Root 300 MG, Avena Sativa 1200 mg, DIM Plus 200 mg. Right now being careful on Stinging Nettle but heavy on Avena (to sow my wild oats). Keeping Vitamin Shoppe and GNC in business but honestly most is probably useless except the last string.
BTW - not a Pittsburgh native so I actually cannot stand the Steelers - NY Giants is where my allegiance lies. Sunday game was watching my two least favorite teams. Rooting for the Packers for the SB!
scaredtodeath,
Since you were talking about Free Testosterone, I thought I would comment. I have a seen a large number of guys here with Free Testosterone that is very low or off the map entirely. I have managed to improve some of my hormones including Estrogen, but Free Testerone has never come back up to a normal range. I wonder how many of our problems we could fix just by getting this hormone back in range.
Boston - I agree - tried to send to you but site email not working for me.
The free T or % free T is the number folks should be looking at - for me total T is over 700 so fine in range but me free sucks and I feel like a 80 year old. I think more should be either looking at free T or at least testing SHBG to know how much is actually available for the body to use.
I have to believe that if we can get this number right most symptoms would at least abate if not correct completely
OK - a couple days later back to shrunken state; especially noticable is the testicles. This is ridiculous.
However, since I jsut started with Nettle and Sativa I will continue for a bit to see how it goes.
I am more interested in Proviron after reading more on the boards - looks like it lowers SHBG, lowers E, and can boost free T. As it is a steroid not sure how I would go about getting a doctor to prescribe -none that I have found want anything to do with those.
I took a couple of proviron 25mgs and was almost back to normal self. Libido was very high. Ejaculate volume still low but I could masterbate almost till my hearts content. Then I crashed. Took 75mgs a week later to days running and nothing!
hmmm - is 25 mg too high? Did you need a doctors script?
Also - hate to even say this but my nipples are burning - have been for the past two days…
Guys - still optimistic on the two SHBG inhibitors. Most seem to be against Stinging Nettle Root becuase of 5AR but I am willing to chance it given my super high SHBG.
My results so far - had two really bad shrinkage days (actual post-orgasm) so I may try to abstain a bit.
The rest of the days (roughly 3 good for every bad day) I have had much better fullness. Not back to 100% but anywhere from 70-85% vs. 50%. Primarily fuller on the frank but some on the beans.
My guess - if SHBG is slightly lower my free Test % has to be rising which seems to be directly related to flaccid state and size. Also - I have mentioned already but color is better during these better days - slight pink blush. Funny as this has been missing for so long - normally gray/brown, lifeless. Guessing my body temp is a bit better which for me correlates with fullness as well.
OK so I tried Kazman’s calculator. Assuming my T stays relatively constant and I focus strictly on SHBG, here are the results:
Now SHBG 66 - free Test % 1.37%
SHBG to 60 - free Test 1.49%
SHBG to 55 - free Test 1.6%
SHBG to 50 - free Test 1.72%
SHBG to 45 - free Test 1.85%
Recommended ranges per Quest: SHBG - 9-45, % free T 1.5% to 2.2%.
Intersting to me becuase if I could get the SHBG down to 45 which is barely in range I would be right in the center for % free T. Even if I can only get it to 55-60 I would be right on the borderline. Could it be I am getting closer to that with these two herbs - I am not really sure. Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on this?
scaredtodeath, nettle root, in addition to its ability to bind to SHBG (leaving more free testosterone), is also a known type 2 5-alpha reductase inhibitor. For this reason I would recommend against it.
Generally, higher SHBG levels are triggered by higher estradiol levels. A key way to reduce estradiol is to minimize or eliminate any excess bodyfat (a fat cell is an estrogen factory). Think I’m down to around 10% body fat on Paleo diet, power lifting once or twice a week, and doing sprints/cardio interval training once a week. There is one other fairly powerful supplement that appears to reduce estradiol based on my own bloodwork, but one can’t stay on it continuously and it brings its own risks.
Have charted my symptoms over the past 2 years, then gone back and calculated free testosterone from total serum T, and there was a short, ~ 6 week period of rising testosterone levels (on Clomiphene) during which my free T was a little over 2%. Felt 70% better, but it did not last (think its because my body reacted to the rising T levels by making more E and thus SHBG). Since then free T has been around 1.5%, not quite high enough.
Keeping total T over ~ 650 ng/dL using clomiphene, hcG, or a carefully staggered mixture of the two tends to see a return in morning erections, limited ability to perform without a PDE5 inhibitor, and minimization of adrenal fatigue (also use a supplement for this purpose) but still not much in the way of libido, or ejaculate volume/orgasm intensity.
Making some changes in the coming month to my diet, basically to avoid all known substances which effect or decrease androgen receptor activity and of course all known 5AR2 inhibitors, will be starting threads on this approach soon (large amount of data and references to pull together).
kazman
Latest Urologist visit.
OK - so not sure what to think of the latest doctor. Went to an ED urologist specialist that I was referred to by my latest urologist. My first question was whether he knew about propecia issues and he said yes he has treated many folks with sexual sides from propecia. Went through my long story and all my bloodwork, the atrophy worries, etc.
His personal opinion was nothing heals our body like time. His perspective from his experience was that with over a decade on this harmful drug that I should expect 3-4 years off before things really return to normal. At one year off he said our bodies would be bouncing hormonally up and down due to the whole way propecia impacts the hormonal cycle. He also said I was panicking about all of my sides etc. and from his perspective I still had a normal penis and normal testicles. I resisted this whole “you are still normal” because my point was I may still be within range but I am half the size as before. He said yes he understood and it was not in my head but that over time my body would heal and find a balance and hopefully the shrinkage would abate.
He wants me to stop the tamoxefin and to wait it out another month and then retest T, Free T, Estradiol, SHBG. More than anything he wanted me to stop panicking, stop suuplements, eats well, diet, and try to be healthy in all other ways.
Well this pretty much goes against all of the folks on these boards and all of the HRT, supplments, etc. we are all trying. But I am also realizing that so many folks who tinker with their hormones are not really having any great results anyway. And yes there are those who have been cured but more than any other factor it seems to be time.
I do not know what to think anymore. I am going to stop the Tamoxefin - have been on it over 4 months anyway so I was ready to stop. It really has not improved the symptoms anyway. Any thoughts to his whole just give it time, lots of time. Not sure I can sit here in this state for the next three years?
scaredtodeath,
This guys comments are pretty interesting. The biggest problem I see is what if you do nothing for 3-4 years and you haven’t improved at all? Not only do you lose 3-4 year of your life, but you’re basically at square 1 because you haven’t try to intervene.
Sadly, I would feel a sense of optimism if he was right though. The other issue is some of our sides run the gamit. You have guys with just ED issues and others like me with a host of other problems. People live with Hypothyroidism for 10 years and never really know have it. So from what I have read, this particular problem won’t likely simply go away over time.
Have you also been to an Endo? Do you have a plan for what you will do next?
Boston - yes, I had been to an endo which I really became frustrated with. She really did not seem to have a good sense of male hormonal issues and had no real plan.
Of all my bloodwork, the three items that stick out (not in normal ranges) are :
Estradiol - this has been above the male range at 55 (males range 13-54; ideal is 20-25)
SHBG - way off last test at 66 (male range up to 45)
% free T - always off at 1.4% (Range 1.5-2.2%)
My T4 has always been a bit low. This new guy was very anti-propecia, he said you corrupt the whole male hormonal balance and many folks get severely elevated E while on it. Everything for me has gotten much worse since being off but maybe my E was elevated all along while on. The SHBG is going to high anytime Estrogen is out of range too.
I do agree with you that there is a lot more issues beyond the sexual sides and Thyroid and cortisol issues may not resolve on their own. I will say for me, the sexual issues are all I have and luckily my Total T has never really dropped - remains steady around 710. I was not really happy with the wait it out and your body will naturally heal but then again when I look at most of the recoveries posted, they are not overnight. There is always an element of time - especially the longer one was on this poison.
I also look at many of the folks who aggressively try to right themselves with TRT, etc. and never seem to really get better. The thing we do not know is what would happen if they did nothing except eat better, sleep more, lose excess weight?
I am thinking I will stop the Tamox (have to stop anyway), wait the month he suggests and re-test my bloodwork after being on nothing. As far as supplements, I am thinking to stop all during this month as well. No idea how the bloodwork will turn out but I will have some decision to make then.
I would appreciate anyones thoughts - positive or negative to the comments from this latest doc
thoughts please…
be calm and retest asap
total t looks good
shbg makes it useless as well as estradiol
what again are your preg/prog/cortisol levels?
t4 is low, have you done t3 or ft3 or rt3? t3 and ft3 low tells you enough, rt3 also
i suspect adrenal issues as well as thyroid issues
you need to read chilln’s hormones 101 on the musclechat board
give pregnenolone transdermal a try, but wait till you get bloodwork
is the T so high because of tamox? it may drop now you quit it… clomid alone will give rise to shbg on longer term usage, perhaps tamox will do this as well not sure
if total t remains high and e2 also, while cortisol whack, you need to try preg cream, hydrocortisone, thyroid meds
also despite kazman comments, try some urticia dioica (activate extreme) and see how this makes you feel… lowering shbg makes test more useful even in the presence of low total t
if adrenal (saliva test) returns normal give aromasin a try, it kills aromatase fast and takes a while to build up so start conservatively, take like 12.5 mg twice a week and calibrate from there if e2 symptoms remain
but, most important wait 4 weeks or 6 weeks so you can get a clean baseline after the tamoxifen, and do a cortisol saliva test (100 bucks i believe) and get that t3 measured
These are my thyroid results:
TSH 1.07 Range 0.4-4.5
T4, free 1.0 Range 0.8-1.8
T3, Free 322 Range 230-420
Second test
TSh 1.35 Range 0.4-4.5
T4, free 1.0 Range 0.8-1.8
Thyroid Peroxidase AB <10 Range <35
Cortisol Results:
AM 11.4 Range 4-22
Cortisol, free 34.0 Range 4-50
Creatinine 1.63 Range 0.63-2.5
I cannot find any Preg/Prog results…
As far as the total T - before Tamox - 718. After 2 months Tamox 711. I do not think I will drop.
I really do not think I have a Cortisol or thyroid issue - maybe just a bit on the T4. I tried Syuynthroid for a month and a half and had no impact - better or worse.
I am game for trying the give pregnenolone transdermal cream a try; not sure if I would need T3. Right now I am going to do/take NOTHING for 30 days and retest.
am cortisol looks on the low side
retest this one and get a saliva te rule it out
preg may be a good idea to try
first baseline though