Adrenal Fatigue, Prostate size, Cavernous nerve pliability

General Discussion
#1

First of all, I’m 28 and had a severe reaction to 1mg Finasteride used to simulate the effects of Propecia about 6 months ago. After about 1.5 months, the first side effects became noticeable. I went back to normal (actually, far better than normal) for about 3 weeks, until I gradually returned to a similar pre-Fin state in terms of libido.

Since then, I have been up and down. Zero libido for weeks, and then perhaps a week of normalcy. To say the least, it has been frustrating. Early on – devastating. I feel like I’m recovering, but only because I have been listening to my body and documenting my recovery. I will post much more when the time comes.

For now, my theory on the basic mechanism of Finasteride-induced damage:

I am an engineer and scientist, and I tend to investigate the more simple explanations before delving into the complex ones. (Akham’s Razor, right?) So I will be as simplistic as possible. Here are the basic facts and conclusions I’ve boiled down from my experience thus far:

  • I had/have a hypothyroid condition and am just about at the proper level to treat it.

  • Finasteride was developed as a chemical that physically shrinks the prostate by denying it DHT, thereby reducing the swelling.

  • During Fin use, the body lacks normal levels of DHT. Thus, it responds by increasing the level of testosterone to compensate.

  • Upon stopping Fin, DHT suddenly rushes back into the prostate. Not only does the DHT concentration return to normal, but is increased due to the increased levels of testosterone being produced.

  • The dramatic increase in DHT swells the prostate beyond normal levels, resulting in the characteristic “2-3 weeks of normalcy” experienced by many of us. In fact, during this time, my prostate felt great! Very warm, very “open” and pleasurable. I could feel that my prostate was enlarged, and I even had symptoms of PBH after ejaculating one time.

  • After the 2-3 weeks, the body readjusts. Testosterone/DHT levels go down, and the prostate shrinks. For most, it seems this shrinking/expanding does little harm. But for us, the dramatic changes in prostate size “shock” the gland and weaken it. Much time is needed for full recovery.

  • As well, I believe that the cavernous nerve may be afffected. It is directly attached to the prostate, and is very delicate. The dramatic changes in prostate size may affect/damage this nerve. Think of a balloon that has string loosely taped to it for 20-40 years. Then, all of a sudden, shrink the balloon, and then expand it, and then shrink it again. That’s a lot of stress… and that “tape” might loosen a bit.

I tend to believe this theory because if I flex my pubococcygeal muscle (PC muscle, google “Kegel Excercises”), I can feel a “wash” of tinging sensations starting from my scrotum and sometimes extending into the shaft of my penis and foreskin. Somehow, I believe the nerve is coming back into greater contact with the prostate and normal sexual feeling is momentarily restored.

  • I also believe that stress plays a large role in this. Many who start Propecia are very stressed or depressed by hair loss. It’s bad enough. But then add on to that hormonal changes (presents a huge stressor to the body), and on top of all that, impotency? These are the two WORST things that can happen to a man. Adrenal reserves can be drained very fast in this environment, and I believe post-Fin sufferers must address this as a part of the problem. Hint: use Saliva hormone tests. Do not rely on other blood tests as they are geared toward sensing serious Adrenal diseases, which we likely don’t have. DO NOT overlook stress. Research more on the effects of “Adrenal Fatigue.”

That’s all for now. I’m still trying to get back to 100%, and I want to do so NATURALLY. I will dump all my data on you and explain my recovery story once I know I’m there.

Right now, I’m supplementing my adrenals. That is going well, and I’m going to focus more on the prostate now. 30-45 day Broccolli treatment is next on my list.

Any thoughts or suggestions, guys?

#2

I too belive in simple theories. However i think its started out simple but develped into other things aswell for many ppl.

The hormone part u describe makes sence and has been up here b4 as its the most logical explanation.

I experience a very similar reaction when i came off as u describe.

The only time ive felt good / normal when testing my hormones is when my progesterone was up to 2x the range. Progesterone reduce dht. And in my case, less dht = more testosterone. Or thats what i belive at this point. Now high progesterone might cause issues on its own including estrogen like sides. It could also be stressing the adrenals because the need to increase progesterone output to keep dht in check.

Im actually thinking of trying Saw palmetto to c if it makes any difference. For me and others too the real issues dident start untill we quit so low dht in itself is probably not what is causing my lingering sides, cause if so i wold have felt like this on the drug.

About the prostate i can only say that, yeah for sure the prostate is envolved but i think thats all hormonal. If u get the hormones right the prostate will follow.

My doc recently said you can test for DHT in sweden now so i will do that in januari when i have my scheduled adrenal stress test.

#3

This may very well explain the sexual sides, but it doesn’t explain the neuro ones. For myself, I believe that Gaba and the function of it and it’s receptors are tied into correct sexual function. One of my more annoying symptoms is not being able to fully focus my attention on a given subject or task because of the lack of serenity in my head. This “static” is due to decreased Gaba function.

In all of my studying and research I was actually surprised to see how involved neurotransmitters are in healthy sexual function. I do know that when I am having a “clear head day” my sexual function is much, much improved.

#4

This can be explained by the lack of DHT in the bloodstream caused by a prostate that is not receiving enough testosterone due to it’s decreased size. Lacking DHT does have mental effects. Your lack of “serenity” could also be explained by a weakened adrenal system. Look up “adrenal fatigue” and see if those symptoms don’t match up with you.

I tend to believe this more simple theory as opposed to something more complex. I mean, who the heck knows if GABA has anything to do with it. But we do know with certainty that Fin shrinks prostates.

#5

Think of it the reverse way. When you are having a “good day” sexually, that means your prostate is in it’s original, healthy state. This means healthy sexual function, and because of more DHT in the bloodstream, better mental function.

Many cultures have thought of the prostate of the “center of energy” for centuries. No coincidence that when your prostate tanks, so does your sense of wellbeing.

Focus on healing the gland, and the rest will follow. From a purely systems standpoint, it’s pretty unlikely that some specific part of your brain is damaged. It’s more likely that the entire prostate is damaged/weakened, and is upsetting the hormonal balance your body has been used to for decades.

#6

I think healing the adrenal function is the key issue to heal ourselves as well.

velocity, what supplements are you taking? i think about taking hidrocortisone

#7

Very bad idea! Cortisone will help for awhile, but it will gradually shut down your adrenal glands. When you get off the chemical, you will be worse off than before.

I’m taking a suppliment program that includes several specific vitamins, herbs, and glandular extracts that are hormone-free. It’ll take awhile to rebuild adrenals naturally. But that’s the best way. If you’d like more info, let me know.

#8

“I mean, who the heck knows if GABA has anything to do with it. But we do know with certainty that Fin shrinks prostates.” (velocity)

Well, for one, I know that GABA has ALOT to do with it. Just by that last comment you made it is obvious that you have not done enough basic research. I can assure you that a shrunken prostate isn’t going to create static and misfiring of neurons. GABA disruption will. Read a little bit more of the wealth of information on this site. You’ll see what I mean. This one is particularly helpful.

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668

#9

Another thread about Finasteride’s effects on GABA-A/neurosteroid inhibition which may be of interest:

propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1387

More info in the “Mental Side Effects” section.

#10

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know everything on this topic. And I’ll agree with the GABA argument 100% DURING Finasteride treatment. But once Fin is effectively out of the body, it can no longer actively suppresses GABA.

After going off of Fin, I was fantastic for a few weeks. Sexual sides were gone, in fact I was 120%. Brain fog had gone away. Erections harder. Where was the post-Fin GABA suppression during that 3 week time? It doesn’t seem plausible that Fin would somehow “kick back in” after a few weeks.

To me, prostate stress, leading to hormonal imbalance, is the only explanation that fits with our collective characteristic symptoms.

Hypoandrea also has the side-effects of brain fog and general malaise… as do hypothyroid states. Both glands are closely linked and play a fundamental role in the body. I noticed that once my hypothyroid state had been corrected, a lot of the brain fog went away. The rest is likely due to the decreased DHT levels.

In short, I agree with your characterization WHILE Finasteride is in the body. But once it dissipates, I’m not (yet) convinced of all the complex retroactive effects you speak of. Stressed prostate + affected adrenal/thyroid makes much more sense to me.

#11

Right, but…

It can no longer supress DHT either, but the problems persist.

You don’t have to agree with it, and I’m not going to bother posting on this topic anymore because going back and forth like this is useless, but it makes much more sense to me that neuro problems are caused by messing with neurotransmitters. This is a no brainer. All of the scientific studies back this up to a tee. Believe what you will, but for neuro problems, this is a brain chemistry issue, not a prostate one. Read the studies.

#12

Post-Fin, the DHT would be lowered (not suppressed) by the fact that the prostate is getting dramatically less bloodflow than before.

Are you saying that neuro problems are a result of a permanent or semi-permanent impact from Fin? If neurotransmitters are affected in that way, then the 2-3 week period of normalcy wouldn’t make sense.

I can read the studies, but I’ll take your word for it. I’m not following your logic.

#13

Alright, then following your way of thinking, you would have to say that GABA has “been lowered” not supressed. The end result is the same no matter what you call it. If there is supposed to be X amount of GABA for a healthy functioning mind and now there is less then X, you are going to have neuro problems like the ones I’m experiencing.

I think you may be dealing with a case of the chicken and the egg. DHT isn’t lowered because the prostate is shrunk. The prostate shrunk because DHT was lowered. You’re switching the two. DHT is made by the conversion of T by the 5AR enzyme that has been effectively lowered by fin. In the same respect that GABA is modulated by the conversion of allepregnanolone by 5AR.

There are alot of things that don’t make sense here my friend. Welcome to the reality of the situation.

The human body is amazingly complex. We have trillions of cells performing over 100,000 different functions at the same time at incredible speeds. While simple answers usually sit best with people, it is rarely the case that anything is simple when it comes to the function of our systems. If that was the case, we would all be cured and there wouldn’t be a need for this site. Things would just, work the way they are supposed to…

#14

Agreed that perhaps the end result is the same. But it matters how the end result came to be. Assuming that you have tested and found a GABA deficiency… that can be explained by a low-functioning adrenal system. Uncontrolled levels of insulin can suppress GABA (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7738 … olding=npg).

That makes a whole lot more sense than 5AR/GABA being suppressed by a phantom substance after retroactively kicking in after a 2-3 week period.

Why not? 5AR is contained in prostate tissue. If the prostate is not getting nominal bloodflow or is somehow “damaged,” it is not converting T to DHT. Thus, upsetting a delicate hormonal balance. In addition, if your adrenal glands are not functioning properly, you’ll be getting even less DHT production.

I think my explanation makes sense. I’ve yet to hear how the complex causation you’re talking about is feasible. Specifically, how 5AR is retroactively suppressed despite the Fin chemical expiring in the body. Do you have a theory about how that happens, chemically?

I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing here. I just honestly see a flaw in your logic. Please don’t take that personally. We all want each other to get better!

Ahkam’s Razor…

#15

I disagree with this way of thinking. We want to “correct hormones” to make a part of the body function again. Well, what caused the imbalance in the first place? Heal the body so that it produces the right chemicals – don’t force-feed the body chemicals artificially. Get to the root causation.

#16

That’s the problem. You see a flaw in my logic. It’s not my logic to be flawed. I’m basically agreeing with what the scientific literature says. If you’ve read the studies you will see that it is clear as day. Bottom line. It’s your logic that I think is flawed. Where are the scientific studies backing up your way of thinking? Read the studies. It’s all there. I’m done here.

#17

My friend, the studies you’re referencing say Fin messes with GABA. I have never disputed that. But Fin is out of our systems. There’s no paper that I’ve seen that says Fin retroactively affects the brain or central nervous system.

So, no, unless I’m missing something, your logic is not the logic in the papers referenced. You’re taking their conclusions and then adding on a (major) twist.

That literature does not validate your post-Fin theory. If you believe they do, please explain.

#18

I don’t know where you’re getting retro actively from. I had these problems when I was on fin and I still have them when I’m off. The bottom line is that GABA was disrupted. Why it never went back is what we are all wondering here. That is why this site exists. I don’t understand what you don’t get.

.

I’m not twisting anything. I was simply showing you how GABA was effected through the action of fin. You seemed not to believe that. Go back and read your posts. Nothing more nothing less. If you want me to explain to you why it is still effected, well, if I could do that, I’d be a very rich man. And I wouldn’t be spending my time here.

#19

Retroactive relates to the characteristic 2-3 week period where many of us seem back to normal, and then proceed to decline again. It’s illogical that once Fin is out of the body, it should “hibernate” for a few weeks and then “kick back in.”

So you’re saying you never recovered from the neuro issues, even in the 2-3 weeks after stopping Fin? Did you improve sexually at all? For me, I was completely back to normal in those 2-3 weeks, both sexually and neurologically. But then I declined and went back to a similar (though not as severe) state.

You are twisting the findings when you say “the logic is not mine.” The papers do not say that Fin permanently disrupts GABA. That’s a major logical step.

#20

It’s not much of a step for me. The fin I was taking disrupted the GABA in my brain and I have not been the same since. So call it what you may, but I’m going to say that because I took propecia, my head is fucked up. Very, very simple. The scientific literature supports that theory by showing how fin disrupts GABA. I don’t care if they don’t say it effects it permanently. They don’t have to. I’m living proof. If I never took fin, guess what, I can tell you with absolute certainty that I would not have the neuro problems that I have now. By simply messing with the delicate neurochemistry of the brain, damage was done. How and why? I don’t know and I don’t care. The damage is there, and it is there everyday. Very simple my friend.

And for the record, I never had the luxury of going back to normal for even two or three weeks. Lucky bastard.