both of you all need to read the OP carefully; I stated that saw palmetto can help provided that androgen receptor density is low. It was a conditional and theoretical statement
According to the hear say of all these studies points to gene in the brain that controls response to androgensā¦Its off or they are off and happens to some instantly, some over a period of time and some neverā¦You would not respond correctly again until its turned backā¦
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You manged to sorta explain the first part - that a single pill violently upregulated AR. You have not explained why there is simultaneous epigentic downregulation, as that needs to be in response to too much androgenic signal.
My opinion on how this works is that if your androgen receptors are already overly expressed/overly dense then the body becomes more vulnerable to overstimulation by a relatively smaller amount of androgens. The anecdote that I provided in the OP incidentally explains this phenomena pretty well:
Personally I can vouch for this; I clearly remember being extremely sensitive to small amounts of creatine or tribulus before I discovered soy. However, after discovering and using soy for a long time I became permanently āless sensitiveā to small amounts of creatine or tribulus and instead would only respond to normal dosages of these supplements. This strongly implies that my androgen receptor density decreased after taking soy and this is what caused me to react in a more normal fashion towards normal doses of tribulus or creatine.
To give a more concrete example of this; before experimenting with soy I would experiencing good effects by just taking 200 mg of creatine, if I took a larger dose than this then it would trigger my PFS and I would get shrinkage, ED etc. However after experimenting a long time with soy, I could take a heaping tablespoon of creatine (approximately 25 grams) and be completely fine without experiencing shrinkage, ED, headaches or any other negative effect. This is really a monumental difference, I went from only being able to handle 200 mg of creatine to being able to handle 25 grams of creatine; and this effect was permanent as well.
In theory, even if your androgens are relatively lower, if your body overreacts and aggressively over upregulates androgen receptors (IE the runaway receptor theory), then even the amount of androgens that you do have will become enough to overwhelm the androgen receptor system since there are now much more androgen receptors than there used to be thus leading to overstimulation via too many androgen receptors present (and subsequently over-utilization of existing androgens) as opposed to overstimulation via too many androgens period.
This theory is not mutually exclusive with treatments regarding HDACI/demethylators and their impact on gene expression. I know for a fact that taking soy significantly improved my condition and currently Im experimenting with saw palmetto and zinc to see if they can further improve my condition. Additionally I have a theory that you can cause epigenetic change by subjecting receptors to shock by suddenly dropping hormone levels; if this is the case then it answers what you are saying as well. You can manually impact gene expression in an indirect way by subjecting the receptors to various stimulation via hormone manipulation
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Youāll get worse with saw palmetto that stuff is evil Iām incredibly messed up due to the shampoo I took which contained sp as an ingredient. Your going to make your problems much worse experimenting with that stuff Iām warning you!
This theory implies that the effect of the shock which induced the epigenetic change can be easily reversed by inducing yet another epigenetic change to revert the AR back to its original form. Somewhat wishful thinking and overly simplistic I feel.
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delete
Regardless of who is right or wrong itās positive that the issue is being discussed. Despite the challenges it shows people are still hopeful of a recovery which is good for everyone.
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Listen man, 2 years in PFS I had this week when I was taking Brocoli and asparagus every day for meal and dinner, after 1 week has passed I left the broccoli and believe me it was incredible, I went from a beta, pushy low enery regarding sex to recover that alpha feeling, high sexually and enegy. It was incredible I dont know what happened.
I hope you are aware that you are not addressing (understanding?) my question and/or your explanation makes no sense. People get PFS with a single pill, when their DHT levels go down. What overwhelming of the ARs are we talking about here? I got PFS with a single pill, withing 30 minutes, not even a day later.
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If I understood his theory correctly, he said that the very low concentration of DHT will cause AR to become hypersensitive and then through some regulatory mechanism, the body will decide to methylate genes in the androgen signalling pathway as a response. Thus no crash is needed.
I never claimed that it could definitely work. Its conjecture. What do you suggest instead? Should people just stop any kind of experimentation just because its āwishful thinkingā and might not work? Sorry but im not going to wait an indefinite amount of years just so that maybe, somebody out there will create a fancy epigenetic cure for us. Until that time comes, I prefer to take matters into my own hands
also just FYI some guy on the solvepfs forums partially fixed his PFS by using epigenetic change caused by using strategic dosing of tomato juice (a 5ari). I have reproduced his findings using a similar protocol as well. I think its a possibility thatās well worth looking into
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Why?
ARs are upregulated in an attempt to restore androgenic signal. Why the need then for a downregulatoin elsewhere if androgenic signal is restored (unless, as I said earlier, there is a massive AR overshoot, which sounds like a cop-out)? Remember that we do not have two steps here - first decrease of DHT, and then increase of DHT. We only have a decrease of DHT, upon which PFS immediately happens.
What was his protocol? Iām interested in trying some of this stuff minus the saw palmetto usage
Iām not sure exactly why, I donāt think anyone can answer that question at the moment. As I said before it could simply be an automatic response to hypersensitive AR. In this case it could be considered a glitch, something that was never meant to happen, but did happen because the body had been put in a completely unnatural situation (extremely low DHT).
Using rats to test out these protocols.
Is the only way to first determine which genes are at fault then replicate those faulty genes in a rat? Then give the rat PFS.
Is there another way around this?
I think that we should generally start including consideration of Accutane and SSRIs and how compatible our theories are with those two drugs when thinking of new explanations for our problem. As long as groups are only thinking of their own drug, weāre all divided and will never be significant enough in number to receive the scientific funding we need to ever realize a ācureā.
Basically, I donāt think it matters much what theories we come up here as long as they will never lead to any science.
If we could start thinking of the other groups as well then our theories would both be more sophisticated and more conducive to actual progress.
Perhaps we should all be studying as much as possible what these drugs have in common and what the ramifications are in terms of explanation of the effects we experience.
Here is an excellent thread where AWOR discussed the connection between Accutane and Propecia
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I sure wish we could find a way of pulling together the 400k he mentions for the study in that thread. We never do, though. We sit and bitch, tell ourselves we are smarter than scientists while spending hundreds of dollars on herbs, recycle the same old theories among ourselves over and over for 10 years while dying and getting too old to have families.
A really simple thing to do would be to ensure that everyone who joins here takes the survey.
Herbs, diets and cold showers will not cut it.
Proof that cannot be ignored goes some way to getting scientists interested and puts us in a position to apply for governmental funding.
Instead of filling out the survey (āA WHOLE HOUR?!ā) people who say their entire lives have been wrecked donāt fill out the survey and head to a health food shop to buy the same supplement they bought last week - but this time in different coloured packaging.
@kan created a topic recently where he asked people to pledge some time to help with our efforts.
I made a similar topic a while back.
These topics, asking people to take action tend to be less popular than ones with a new theory or idea.
Thereās work to be done. Anyone reading this, let me know if youāre ready to start.
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