Why?
ARs are upregulated in an attempt to restore androgenic signal. Why the need then for a downregulatoin elsewhere if androgenic signal is restored (unless, as I said earlier, there is a massive AR overshoot, which sounds like a cop-out)? Remember that we do not have two steps here - first decrease of DHT, and then increase of DHT. We only have a decrease of DHT, upon which PFS immediately happens.
What was his protocol? I’m interested in trying some of this stuff minus the saw palmetto usage
I’m not sure exactly why, I don’t think anyone can answer that question at the moment. As I said before it could simply be an automatic response to hypersensitive AR. In this case it could be considered a glitch, something that was never meant to happen, but did happen because the body had been put in a completely unnatural situation (extremely low DHT).
Using rats to test out these protocols.
Is the only way to first determine which genes are at fault then replicate those faulty genes in a rat? Then give the rat PFS.
Is there another way around this?
I think that we should generally start including consideration of Accutane and SSRIs and how compatible our theories are with those two drugs when thinking of new explanations for our problem. As long as groups are only thinking of their own drug, we’re all divided and will never be significant enough in number to receive the scientific funding we need to ever realize a “cure”.
Basically, I don’t think it matters much what theories we come up here as long as they will never lead to any science.
If we could start thinking of the other groups as well then our theories would both be more sophisticated and more conducive to actual progress.
Perhaps we should all be studying as much as possible what these drugs have in common and what the ramifications are in terms of explanation of the effects we experience.
Here is an excellent thread where AWOR discussed the connection between Accutane and Propecia
I sure wish we could find a way of pulling together the 400k he mentions for the study in that thread. We never do, though. We sit and bitch, tell ourselves we are smarter than scientists while spending hundreds of dollars on herbs, recycle the same old theories among ourselves over and over for 10 years while dying and getting too old to have families.
A really simple thing to do would be to ensure that everyone who joins here takes the survey.
Herbs, diets and cold showers will not cut it.
Proof that cannot be ignored goes some way to getting scientists interested and puts us in a position to apply for governmental funding.
Instead of filling out the survey (“A WHOLE HOUR?!”) people who say their entire lives have been wrecked don’t fill out the survey and head to a health food shop to buy the same supplement they bought last week - but this time in different coloured packaging.
@kan created a topic recently where he asked people to pledge some time to help with our efforts.
I made a similar topic a while back.
These topics, asking people to take action tend to be less popular than ones with a new theory or idea.
There’s work to be done. Anyone reading this, let me know if you’re ready to start.
Can’t agree more.
I’d be happy to lend a hand in a meaningful way.
I’d be willing to experiment with soy and then finasteride, if you’re unwilling to @skorpio88. I mean I’ve already taken the plunge and fucked around with dutasteride, with some positive results, so why not?
I’m assuming soy milk would be fine? How long would you recommend drinking it prior to trying a day or two (or three) of fin?
I know it’s pretty easy to donate, but it could be even easier. Maybe the paypal donate button could be at the top of every page in forum and also maybe there could be a bitcoin address. Let’s make it easy to capture each and every even only impulsive generous emotion. I’d prefer bitcoin because I have mild philosophical objections to paypal’s cut/fee on everything. That’s of course very minor concern, but perhaps an example of unnecessary friction that over time could add up to something significant. Ideally, people would be donating almost accidentally. The amazon model, I guess, where one click and you’ve sent money hardly without realizing.
How many visitors does the forum have per week? What if every visitor gave $100 this week? Let’s think of getting that 400k.
Do not take Finasteride again.
Many people here have had their situations dramatically worsen after taking substances like Finasteride.
Do not take finasteride again.
There are just a lot of naysayers. Don’t take it to heart, and keep coming back
You should be happy if “might not work” in your case, if you get more sides on top of what you have now you will regret all your life, some people can’t even live further like that, because of the new sides, and commit suicide. I personally, and bunch of people here got worse because of “experimenting” with vitamins and supplements, and I regret now! Please, be smart and don’t touch this shit! You don’t know nothing about PFS, moreover, by posting this kind of theories you can mislead someone new and ruin his live. I spoke with Zadig, RIP, before he took all that crap, talking to me about JQD protocols and whatnot, like he knew what PFS is and how to fix it, because someone else was claiming that he knows the cure… He is gone now.
You are right brother but please a lot of pfs symptoms closely related with psychiatry and neurology experimenting with psycho active stuff is really dangerous. I tried some mild form of @JustQuitDut protocol of aromatase inhibition thank god i have some hope now it did not fixed me but for one week i was almost restored back to my pre pfs state ed did not cured but it is better. Most important thing is that my sensitivity is back i can feel every touch and i have very intense orgasms. Because of this forum i have some hope of ending this nightmare.
.
For the hypothesis,
Yes i was also thinking about restarting high dose finasteride for reducing the impact of over-expressed AR`s but currently i am testing with changing Estrogen / Testosterone / DHT ratio by taking out estrogen my libido came back immediately to my pre pfs hyper-sexual level then it went down a little bit but did not diminished.
I think my reaction was like secession of Finasteride i flooded my body with androgens and it adjusted with reducing sensitivity.
Some of our brothers committed suicide after testing this some of us get better i consider my self to be lucky for now.
I can also confirm that i was hyper-sexual before starting of finasteride when I took it in one week my visual lust blunted and returned to normal levels. I was able to communicate with women without an painful erection.
I used it for 7 years, one day I experienced my first failure after starting and stopping drug several times, i suspected it might because of that then stopped using it.
After that, it was a downward spiral for me until i started methylphenidate then my worsening stopped and reversed a little bit.
Then one day psychiatrist suggested me to stop it i crashed so hard my libido zeroed 20 mg cialis was not effective i consider suicide i restarted immediately and I called psychiatrist he told me that he is sure that my problem is not related with any kind of anxiety by his knowledge it is hormone related. I went to see two urologists finally both told me that finasteride was the cause despite my perfectly normal hormone profile.
Then i researched and find you and started arimidex that was my first real reversal after 8 years.
One other thing I thought about guys. I noticed a pattern of lots of guys saying that they were really healthy and exercised regularly before getting PFS; if this is actually the case then its a strong argument in favor of my theory, the reason why is because exercise upregulates androgen receptors, therefore its possible that heavy exercise (especially weightlifting) can potentially make people more prone to getting PFS, and this is especially so if they had high androgen receptor density to begin with. This is also logical since some PFS guys claim that weightlifting or exercise causes them to crash, this is congruent with the notion that heavy exercise can upregulate androgen receptors and thus agitate the PFS condition.
@Lostinaustin http://forum.solvepfs.com/t/tomato-juice-protocol/1172
I think you have to be a member to access his protocol
@vkg1
I disagree with this approach. Its entirely possible that accutane and SSRIs create side effects in a completely different manner than propecia does. That being said, the receptor dynamics outlined in my protocol could potentially be applied to accutane and SSRI side effects as well.
secondly, theorizing without action is pointless; however if we use theories to base new treatment protocols upon them then theories are quite useful. Currently I am doing experiments to test whether or not my theory appears to be true, I don’t think anyone can argue that what I am doing is not useful.
@Burt_Kocain
I would recommend using soy flour since it is significantly more concentrated and more powerful than soy milk. Regarding the usage of soy to downregulate androgen receptors, its kind of a guessing game since its hard to know precisely how upregulated your androgen receptors are to begin with. That being said, you have two options when it comes to dosing soy:
1.you can do a soy cycle beforehand to preemptively downregulate your androgen receptors. My completely arbitrary guess would be to take 2-3 tablespoons of soy flour a day for 1-2 weeks. Like I said though, this is a completely arbitrary number since the degree of androgen receptor upregulation is impossible to know for each individual person.
2.you can take soy concurrently with finasteride (although not at the same time of course since we want to avoid any accidental interactions between the two), this can actively downregulate androgen receptors as the finasteride is indirectly upregulating androgen receptors via androgen deprivation.
@Trump_1776
thanks for the encouraging words man
@tisho1012
you do you and Ill do me
@DHT
your story is really fascinating man, thanks for sharing your experience man; its so important that we get feedback like this in order to collect evidence for or against this theory
There might be some truth in that. Because before PAS, I was cycling creatine occasionally and back then I noticed that it’s negatively affecting my libido and erection. And when I was off cycle , all symptoms always disappeared after few days. Symptoms weren’t that bad , but they were consistent and still noticeable while on cycle. thats the reason i didn’t use creatine anymore for my workouts.
I also want to add that this theory reliably explains why some guys paradoxically experience an increase in baldness or at the very least experience a shed when they go on propecia; its possibly because they had low androgen receptor density to begin with and propecia increased their AR density, thus increasing their baldness or causing a massive shed. Anyways the reason I bring this up is to demonstrate that propecia reliably upregulates androgen receptors and this is something that can help us understand its mechanism of action better.
@slick1
thanks for sharing your experience. My own person suspicion is that the androgen receptors are easy to upregulate but are harder/more resistant to downregulation. Anecdotally I have read about similar stories to what you say regarding creatine and it appears that the side effects associated with taking creatine (for a normal, non-PFS guy) do not eventually resolve themselves by continuing to take creatine (which would suggest the body naturally downregulating androgen receptors in response to the high creatine dosage), but rather the negative side effects persist until the person stops taking creatine. In this regards, I think that maybe all receptors are not the same; some receptors (like dopamine receptors) are much more sensitive to downregulation while others like androgen receptors are much more resistant to downregulation. This is just my guess anyways, I have no scientific evidence to back this up.
I don’t see how this theory explains hair loss. Hair loss is an androgenic feature and in general, androgenic features are muted in PFS, which we believe is due to AR overexpression.
I said that some (many?) people that go on propecia experience an initial increase in balding or shedding when they first go on propecia, I wasnt referring to something that happens after PFS is acquired.