(30 nov 2021) Keep getting new sides

Welcome to our community. Please fill in the following template as a way of introducing yourself, and helping others to understand your background and situation.

Where are you from (country)?

  • europe

How did you find this forum (Google search – if so, what search terms? Via link from a forum or website – if so, what page? Other?)

  • knew it from the tressless subreddit an american forum

What is your current age, height, weight?

  • 26

What specific drug did you use (finasteride, dutasteride, saw palmetto, isotretinoin/Accutane, fluoxetine, sertraline, citalopram, leuprorelin, etc…)?

  • minoxidil 1-2 daily, dermarolling once a week 1.5 mm and .5mm, to increase absorption, retionol oil the ordinary, all caused no issues, until adding Finasteride 2 doses

What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?

  • Microdosed fin

What condition was being treated with the drug?

  • hairloss

For how long did you take the drug (weeks/months/years)?

  • 2 doses in three days

How old were you, and WHEN (date) did you start the drug?

  • 26

How old were you when you quit, and WHEN (date) did you quit?

  • 26

How did you quit (cold turkey or taper off)?

  • cold turkey

How long into your usage did you notice the onset of side effects?

  • 1-2 hours

What side effects did you experience that have yet to resolve since discontinuation?

As of 21-10-26:
physical

  • soft skin
  • hands are weak, as are wrists, lack of sensation in them, and decrease of control
  • wrist size reduced significantly
  • increase in subq fat
  • soft appearance of muscles
  • increase in water retention
  • mild persistant headache
  • tired and on the border of sleeping all day
  • stomach ache, warmth
  • testicular pain (declining)
  • unsubsiding pelvic floor contraction
  • eyes are different compared to prefin
  • EDIT: hydrocortisone/L-theanine relieved fatigue and brain fog partly
  • veins in hands and feet got thinner (in accordance with stregnth)
  • dry skin (27-10-21)
  • EDIT: loss of appetite starting the same day i took the drugs(29-10-21)
  • EDIT: clumsy with hand movements, lack of direct control, laughable how uncontrolled I move around, its disturbing (31-10-21)
  • EDIT: Persistent headache, possibly caused by creatine supplementation
  • voice tends to pitch higher and sounds more careful (1-11-31)

mental:

  • lack of sharpness, focus, ambition
  • depressed, lack sense of responsibility
  • associate differently with men and women then before
  • more awareness
  • increase verbal acuity (as if able to access a different part of the brain)
  • lack of power or emotion when talking. (I.e. more like a ship without a rutter. Instead of a car, on the highway, responding instantly to a hit on the brakes, or when pushing the gas pedal.)
  • emotions/feelings and facial expressions aren’t aligned anymore.
  • holding eye contact is barely possible
  • EDIT: extreme uncertainy, unable to hold tension in a conversation
  • unable to confront someone
  • difficulty defending personal boundaries
  • derealization and unsubstantiated fear for mundane things (01-11-21)

sexual:

  • loss of libido
  • ED
  • loss of sensitivity in penis, different kind of sensitivity as well.
  • when having an erection, different kind of erection, slow and steady instead of instant boner
  • generally weak erections
  • sexual radiance and or energy seems changed

Check the boxes that apply. You can save your post first, then interactively check/uncheck the boxes by clicking on them. If your symptoms change, please update your list.

Sexual
Loss of Libido / Sex Drive
Erectile Dysfunction
Complete Impotence
Loss of Morning Erections
Loss of Spontaneous Erections
Loss of Nocturnal Erections
Watery Ejaculate
Reduced Ejaculate
Inability or Difficulty to Ejaculate / Orgasm
Reduced Sperm Count / Motility

Mental
Emotional Blunting / Emotionally Flat
Difficulty Focusing / Concentrating
Confusion
Memory Loss / Forgetfulness
Stumbling over Words / Losing Train of Thought
Slurring of Speech
Lack of Motivation / Feeling Passive / Complacency
Extreme Anxiety / Panic Attacks
Severe Depression / Melancholy
Suicidal Thoughts

Physical
Penile Tissue Changes (narrowing, shrinkage, wrinkled)
Penis curvature / rotation on axis
Testicular Pain
Testicular Shrinkage / Loss of Fullness
Genital numbness / sensitivity decrease
Weight Gain
Gynecomastia (male breasts) (using a SERM Raloxifene to prevent, so no, otherwise probably)
Muscle Wastage
Muscle Weakness
Joint Pain
Dry / Dark Circles under eyes

Misc
Prostate pain
Persistent Fatigue / Exhaustion EDIT: hydrocortisone lowered it, but it’s still there bodily (27-10-21)
Stomach Pains / Digestion Problems
Constipation / “Poo Pellets”
Vision - Acuity Decrease / Blurriness
Tinnitus (ringing or high pitched sound in ears) (had it before fin)
Hearing loss
Increased hair loss
Frequent urination
Lowered body temperature (cold hands)

Other (please explain) --> See mentioned above.

What (if any) treatments have you undertaken to recover from your side effects since discontinuation of the drug?

  • raloxifene i started before finasteride to prevent further gynecomastia development, intake of caffeine 2-3 double espresso’s daily before fin and continuing, added creatine, astragalus root, L-tyrosine, N- actyctyl ceistine

If you have pre or post-drug blood tests, what hormonal changes have you encountered since discontinuing the drug (please post your test results in the “Blood Tests” section and link to them in your post)?

  • only pre-fin will add later

Anything not listed in the above questions you’d like to share about your experience?

Not really, besides it’s like living hell, like all of you know. I’m here to find a solution asap. And am willing to try everything to get this solved, I’m not going to wait on some sort of science coming out. The science is there, you just need to know where to look.

I associate closely with @JustQuitDuts approach, and taking the pharmacological road. I’m not willing to live like this one day longer then necessary, even if that means HRT for life. And with there being solution available already, and recoveries as well I’ll try my best to get there now. EDIT: I do find it strange that he never posted his blood results, and claimed to have helped people who were recovering, but those people never bothered to post anonymously on this forum. So while I do believe his approach to be right, I don’t know if you should trust him.

But will do all this as safe as possible. I’m not eager to use steroids for the rest of my life, so I’m willing to do things to prevent it, but waiting until some sort of magic research is released is no solution for me either.

My current protocol (updated 27-10-21):

  • GABA (to prevent stress and headache, EDIT: I will rather tolerate headache then feel tired, so no GABA for me currently (27-10-21))
  • creatine (increase 5AR, and therefore DHT concentrations) 5-10g daily —> quiting because I believe it causes major headaches right now (1-11-21)
  • Astragalus root (decreases progesterone, prog makes me feel like a sicko, and I’d rather have too low then too much, also to increase kidney function) (2000-3000mg daily)
  • NAC to increase liver function, to be able to metabolise estrogen (1000mg daily)
  • Lot of coffee (caffeine increases 5AR, and therefore DHT) about 600mg daily
  • Magnesium for sleep (27-10-21)
  • L-tyrosine for focus (27-10-21)
  • Raloxifine as “PCT” and gyno prevention 60mg daily (forgot to note down) (27-10-21)—>tapering off because it impairs liver function (1-11-21)

EDIT: Diet, I try to eat healthy, and lots of fat. But not trying to bulk as that would increase E2, which is not diserable in my opinion. So alot of protein, meat, carbs jut not too much unhealthy. But not too strict on eating healthy either. Only 2 beers max in the weekend. (27-10-21)

EDIT: I’m going to do nofap. Whenever I stopped masturbation ED/libido got better. Everytime I fapped I got in a slightly worse situation. (27-10-21)

My main route right now is optimising 5AR and DHT. And both go both ways. Because DHT mildly increases 5AR (generally, in normal circumstances) and the other way around. Also DHT could be viewed as a mild AI. It prevents Estrogen levels from getting too high, without risking nuking them totally (as I’ve seen other members tell there issues with).

So raising DHT is the safes way for optimizing hormonal balance again. Have ordered Proviron as well, and after blood test, depending on the issue, will start out using it.

I’ll keep updating this thread as a way to guide members if they were willing to risk it and take the same path I do. And or otherwise, as an informative way of what not to do, would I fail in my endeavor.

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Thanks for telling us more about your situation @weaksides ! Sorry you’re going through this.

It looks like it’s not that long ago that you quit fin thoigh. Take it easy and relax in the next few months and see where you stand. Many people see symptoms improve in the first few weeks or months.

Thanks for the response.

Some things partly improved. The feminizing part not so, not a bitz only the way I personally deal with it. Do you have pfs? Have you experience(d) something similar? How?

I’ve been sick since 2010 (I have a long member thread you can read). In the first 2-3 months, I was a complete shell of a person… felt completely disabled… a literal zombie. Then things quickly improved, but I got stuck on a new baseline. In my understanding, this initial improvement amounts to a full recovery for a lot of people. Of course, some don’t improve at all, but that seems more rare.

Bottom line - I would wait for a few months to see what happens. Do whatever you can to put your body in a good place to heal - lower stress, sleep, good diet, light exercise (if you can tolerate it).

Also - don’t go out getting drunk as if nothing is happening (like I did!)

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Updating my story in the comments, seems more useful.

20 days since stopping finasteride:
Had encounted headache, which I believed to be caused by creatine. So I stopped the mild loading phase of 10 gram daily last 10 days yesterday. Yesterday didn’t take any, to see if it was the cause. The headache went away, while I didn’t change any other variables. It might be due to the extreme amount of 5AR or something along the lines.

Started the normal daily intake of 5 grams today.

Daily protocol:

  • tapering off Raloxifene, will be going to 15 mg daily now
  • 1000 mg NAC
  • 1500 mg L-tyrosine
  • 3g glycine
  • coffee equating to 500-600mg caffeine daily
  • trying to eat healthy, no soy products.
  • zinc 12,5mg tablet
  • magnesium glycinate 100mg
  • 5g creatine
  • GABA whenever headache becomes too much
  • L-theanine for sleep whenever needed.

Getting bloodwork done soon, probably next week. Marking 4 weeks into Finasteride side effects. Need to know before starting Tribulus and possibly other treatments.

I keep at it with resistance training, to make sure my body knows it needs the androgens. Haven’t seen muscle wastage on prominent places. But did so slightly in hands and feet. Bloodflow there seems restricted as the veins aren’t showing anymore. Hands and feet are generally cold also.

I have no issues with sleep, the only issue I have is staying awake. It seems I can lay in bed for weeks. Something must be wrong with adrenal steroids or someting like it. Can’t seem to feel stressed whenever I cognitively know I must be.

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23 days pfs:
Resistance training is going pretty well. Do have issues with leg days, don’t have the energy to do more then two exercises at most.

Physical:
Skin does seems to carry a bit more oil again. (EDIT: it doesn’t it just seemed to because of lighting.) Still alot of subq fat everywhere which prevents me from accurately verifying potential muscle wastage.

Sense of feeling and strength in my hands fluctuates, and makes some upswings now and then. Positive.

(When holding my phone and having touching fingers behind it feels really disturbing. As if I’m being touched by fingers that aren’t my own or smth.)

Veins in hands are still thin and barely visible

Hunger signalling is weak. Have to think about going to eat, instead of feeling the need to.

Hairloss seems to have decreased a ton, and have increased density. While it was the reason I got on it, I obviously don’t give a sh** about anymore. This worries me regarding dht binding/androgen receptor sensitivity. I hope i’ll lose it soon.

Believe hairloss rate it’s a good parameter in absence of bloodwork. It indicates 5ar activity or dht levels aren’t optimized yet, or their results haven’t materialized yet.

Mental:
Starting to get used to being a different person.

Mentally I’m sharper again. More able to think rationally.

Not as tired as I was. Definitely improving. Eye contact is possible. Not the same, and weird, but I’m caring less about it.

My actions are calculated, i’m not able to truly respond emotionally it seems. (Body-brain connection.) This all happens automatically. I can’t snap out. Not even when angry.

Had an extremely bad nightmare to the point that even when woken up it seemed for about 15 minutes straight I couldn’t get myself together. Heavy derealization, as if every belief I built my convictions on tended to fall away or something. Prayer helped immediately.

Face/eyes still seem weird, radiance/emminence is different. Seems something changed in me.

Sexual:
Few days into nofap again. Can have erections when looking at hot women, even imagination can get me stimulated pretty good, although it happens slower. Still, true femininity as women are, their way of being, alone doesn’t yet stimulatr me as much yet.

Sensitivity in my dick is still weird, one time it’s sensitive the other time not so. Seems more of a mental/neuronal issue (body-brain connection). Erection still fades quickly.

Changes to daily protocol:

  • 30mg raloxifene instead of 15, bc gyno
  • 10g creatine (from 5g)
  • Citrulline Malate 2:3 9g for NOS (added)
  • Taurine 500mg (added)

Eating more to actualize muscle growth.

I’m definitely not recovered. Not yet sure to what extend it’s getting used, and what extent it’s actual recovery. But besides the familiarization, some symptoms are improving.

I hope I’ll start losing my hair soon, and become the person I was once more…

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It seems that you have a good chance to recover. Remember to update your situation, my friend

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Wanted to reply in depth. There’s a lot more under the hood happening, then only the default sides, but the sides are definitely easening up. There’s a lot of mental stuff going on, but it’s too much to go in depth about even on an anynomous forum.

Thanks. Will keep you updated.

26 days pfs:

Mental:

  • people seem not to be able to be comfortable around me
  • feel extremely on edge
  • mild gender confusion, due to subconscious changes, partial brain feminization or smth, mostly mentally.
  • can’t be proud of my physique, feels almost gay to look at myself
  • getting used to my “new face” and it’s less disturbing as time goes on. Definitely still see the differences pre-, post-fin. Don’t know if that’s worrisome, but I don’t have a choice in the matter.
  • EDIT: I’m not taken seriously whenever I try to make a point, as if the way I am now incites ridicule in people. As if I don’t have integrity, and people laugh at that. I seem to surprise peoples low expectations of me whenever I say something that indicates to others I’m smart.

Physical:

  • fat seems to be distributing to my glutes, instead of other places
  • subq fat hasn’t subsided
  • veins in hands still not visible
  • skin dry and soft
  • body hair seems to be thinning
  • hairloss hasn’t decreased
  • wrists still thinner
  • weak hunger signalling
  • still very tired
  • leg strength is weaker
  • caffeine’s effect on the brain is different. I get energy, and am awake, but I’m not more focused or sharp.
    -EDIT: slow metabolism, with the same amount of calories, and activity levels I’m gaining weight instead of losing it

All of the above indicates lack of 5AR activity in the skin and or androgen receptor signalling in the skin, or gene expression after signalling.

Also changes in epigenetics, there’s nothing to explain the relative increase in amount of fat on de glutes.

If it’s truly based on epigenetic changes causing changes in gene expression, there’s no nooe those parts will ever improve.

Either our perception of it must change, or we need to change our symptoms.

Sexual:

  • I am able to have erections
  • erections fade more easily
  • have relapsed on the nofap journey. Now on day two again.
  • not turned on visually as easy, but it’s getting better

We are played.

Played by our wishes to become what we are not. Willing to alter the good and promising future nature or God, intended for us. I’ve always heard, if something seems good to be true, it probably is. Gaining hair on your head without the possibility of any side effects is just a fairytale, and we should have known by our gut feeling beforehand.

We all took the stuff that made us lose part of ourself. To make up for something we shouldn’t have bothered to care about in the first place. It seems almost justified that we are here. Not all did (BPH), but most did actually choose rather have hair like women, in exchange for the most potent form of the masculine hormone, the part of us that made us man. Who knows how our subconscious brain interpreted this (chemical reaction, gene expression, epigenetic changes).

It’s not that all is lost. But, a big part is. And maybe big part of this recovery is needing to accept that a certain part of us will be lost forever. While I’m actually starting to live this way, and losing hope (I already can’t see myself changing to my pre-fin state within 30 days).

Yes the physical parts are getting better, but it’s not only that.

It’s the mental part, the part of being less of a man, of being uncongruant, of subconsciously sctin feminine and coming across that way maybe. Finasteride changed this subconscious behaviours in a week, and I haven’t even noticed alk of it yet. It seems most people on Finasteride don’t even notice this in themselves.

That’s what’s causing severe depression. And that’s what I recognize in other people that have taken Finasteride.

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30 days pfs:

  • can’t be proud of my physique, feels almost gay to look at myself

Just finished training. And instead of how in the zone I would be, and silently proud I would be about the slowly improving physique, the only think I can think of is how seducing I must look. Just the terms that enter my mind are not of me, it’s not how I would look at myself, nor want to look at myself.

One of the side effects eased up in a new way. I wouldn’t say it got restored. Getting a boner talking to women, started suddenly happening. Although, it’s very strange and inconsistent. With the hottest women around walking just past me bending over to pick something up from the ground, for for hypotheticals sake, it wouldn’t happen, nothing happens, but talking with some random middle aged lady which isn’t even a 8/10 it does.

Skin started to look somewhat more yellow it seems.

My eyes aren’t necessarily painful, but they do have now very visible veins walking on the sclera. Any means to prevent this getting worse?

Mental:

  • Still don’t feel congruent.
  • Still can’t hold my ground when having an argument.
  • Whereas before I enjoyed the challenge.
  • Can barely look further then my current emotional state.
  • can barely wake up.
  • cannot hold my promises, and don’t feel compelled to. I’m a useless person when I don’t hokd myself accountable, where otherwise I was able to kill myself if I did.
  • I am not able to plan ahead… it’s as if I live in the moment perpetually and can’t snap out of it
  • i am not masculine anymore at all, except me for the external features.
  • can’t take responsibility properly
  • can’t take myself seriously, and neither can others
  • whenever I’m explaining myself i seem overly emotional and irrational, to the point of people wondering whether I expect them to take me seriously

When I look at old pictures I see a man that did whatever he felt like doing. And he looked that way at the world. That man is a hero. That man is dead. He traded life as a feminine weak POS to be able to prevent losing a few strans some years earlier in life. Right now when I look at it, I feel extremely depressed. That I wanted to become a subhuman to gain an artificial thing: losing hair slower.

Physical:

  • skin still is weird
  • eyes weird
  • bodyhair is thinning
  • metabolism slows down
  • fat redistributes to love handles.

There’s no one to talk about this. No one understands. Everyone seems to see I’m different. They find it funny. Because I was the exact opposite of what I’m now. It’s absurd to see, and that’s what makes people laugh.

I can’t talk about it with others, because they won’t take it seriously either. As I didn’t take your stories, before taking finasteride. “It’s all in your head…” it is said, i don’t even blame them cause I thought that way.

I found men like me despicable and pathetic. And now I have become the antithesis of what a man must be.

I have no hope we’ll recover our minds.

Only some physical aspects, maybe some fringe benefits due to hormone replacement. But I see the same sides in people that claim to have none, which convinces me they simply neglect them or learned to live with if, or where pretty feminine before. Even among bodybuilders.

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You can’t be to hard on yourself about wanting to keep your hair. If being bald was masculine then every Guy in his 20’s-30’s would rush to shave their head. You will get through this.

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31 days pfs:
Metabolism is very slow. Eating the exact same 2300 calories daily, which was my maintenance. This is now causing an increase in bodyweight. At first finasteride caused an extreme lack of hunger, to the point of being able to not eat for a whole day with only getting some slight signals of hunger at the end of the day.

At one point I forced myself to eat more to keep muscles intact. Right now, I have gained 5 lbs in a month, while not having changed anything in my diet, probably even eating less. Metabolism must be slowed down by alot.

Are there any things that could improve this?

Also, gynecomastia is getting worse so I’m increasing Raloxifene use again. Upping the dose from 30 to 60mg (default dose).

Ralox is linked to weight gain, don’t know but it could be related?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/raloxifene-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20065760

Weight gain is listed under “common” and it also has deceased appetite under “less common”.

Maybe the hunger was prevalent before you started Ralox though, but it’s worth noting.

Me personally I wouldn’t even use medicine for gyno, it’s useless in my opinion. Better to save for surgery and get a good surgeon who will remove 100% of the gland without the nipple collapsing.

Not many docs know how to do this though, I know only about a few all located in the USA.

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It’s also a good strategy, but for me it’s too expensive. I’d rather blow 200 bucks until my e2 is in range again.

I was using raloxifene before pfs, so it’s not a new variable. It could have had an catalyzing effect maybe, but I guess it’s just pfs, seeing others are having issues with increased weight as well.

If your far gone regarding gyno, there’s no point in using medicine, since it’ll only prevent further growth up to an extent. It might make the tissue less visible but it’ll never be gone.

Did you get bloods? I couldn’t find any in your posts. If possible I’d really like to see them.

Yeah for sure. Didn’t knew you used it before. Also I saw you used Creatine and it can make you pack on 2-3 kg, water not fat though.

Yeah exactly and in my opinion I wouldn’t use strong medicine when they don’t even “fix” the problem. Especially not after this fin nightmare.

Of course, got ya. Wouldn’t either. I doesn’t to too much wrong, (nothing psychologically) but I understand the concern. It is know to have incidents of deep vein trombosis with some people, which is the only thing I’m worried about rn. And of course your influencing the hormone profile which could be a big risk.

Yeah I have the bloods, I don’t know if I’ll upload them. I could dm them though. E2 was low before starting fin. Little under the average. But not out of range. believe 30 was average, got something between 20 and 25 if im not mistaken. These values were off Raloxifene, but close to starting fin, don’t know the exact unit measure by heart.

I think E2 must be about 60-70 right now, because of the lack of 5AR-> DHT, which by lack of it lets E2 shoot to the top end or over. Would explain the gyno forming once I lower raloxifene. Just theorizing though.

EDIT: Good point about the creatine. Could be related to water retention.

32 days pfs:
Realized I lost all level of authority. Before people felt a need to respond to things I said. Because it made a dent. Right now nobody cares. They don’t feel any need to respond. If they respond it’s mostly out of pity.
Whenever I’m arguing or pointing things out, I can’t seem to influence people any longer. They’ll just laugh and say to the most: interesting.
Before I was a stone, solid, grounded. Right now I’m a feather blowing with the wind. There is no sense of direction in the most core essence of my being. It’s just water forming itself in the shape of anything around it.
How am I ever supposed to lead my woman if I can’t even lead myself.
I became like leaf in the wind.
Also. There this weird as hell connection with strange women that I meet/see, as if I’m on the same plane as them. It’s pretty dang uncomfortable most of the time to be with other men even friends.

I hope this s can get fixed by fixing hormone levels, this is starting to get unbearable at this point. At first is was a fun experience to feel a bit different, being like a stone for my existence, rn I’m done with the trip.

Potential additional pathways in evaluation:

  • bupropion (med)
  • proviron (med)
  • rhodiola rosea (sup) (removed) (study for treatment against BPH in rats showed success/5ARI read more)
  • pycgenol (sup) (removed)
  • maca (sup)
  • ginseng (sup)

EDIT: Nofap working pretty well for me. Now on day 6 or so. I can get hard easier, it still not as fast and still not so much on pure visuals, but it definitely improved. The mental side effects/brain changes are the biggest issue I’m dealing with, it also seems to be at the core of everything else. And it’s not well at all.

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So you only got tested before fin not after right? If you could pm me the results I’d be grateful!

Maybe, one would need tests to confirm. Generally speaking it seems like the evidence that fin increase T and E2 aren’t that strong. I can find studies where they’re either not affected, T increase but E2 decreased, that T increased only in men with low T to begin and then there’s some who saw a modest ~10% increase in E2. Guess it’s very individual.

One also have to take into account that some people get increased progesterone and progesterone increase ER expression. And also the fact we lower androgens by quite a lot, which means the androgen to estrogen ratio get skewed even if our estrogens are in normal range.

I’d be careful with this one. I’ve used it and my dick got worse. Then I found this and it pretty much explained it. In contrast, pycgenol-treated animals showed a decrease in relative weight of the prostate and DHT concentration in the serum and prostate. Which shows that Pycgenol is a decently strong 5ARI.

@Cbrandel Thanks alot for the info on pycgenol. Skipping that one then.
I think the reason E2 rises is because of DHT’s action in balancing out E2. Without DHT levels of E2 are higher. I don’t know the exact mechanism but it’s known in the bodybuilding community that proviron works as a mild AI as well.
Here are two studies describing this from two aspects in more depth:

  • h ttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6645492/ (cannot post link)
  • h ttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6542571/ (same)

AI = aromatase inhibitor.

From your 2nd link:

  • Thus, the antiestrogenic effect of androgen in mouse breast may be the result of effects of dihydrotestosterone on the estrogen receptor.

This is why Proviron work as an “AI”. It doesn’t inhibit aromatase, but rather increase the amount of free DHT (and T).

Estrogens, Progesterone, Prolactin and IGF1 are all working together to induce gyno.

On the other hand androgens (especially DHT) work against them to suppress gyno.

That’s why some people get teen gyno, their T and DHT isn’t low and estrogens aren’t high. But IGF1 is through the roof maybe and that induces gyno.

However, in pubertal gynecomastia, the majority of adolescents have normal estrogen levels.

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